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-- -- back to -- we continue now with Jose Rodriguez junior former director of the CIA's national clandestine service and author of the new -- hard measures -- right so you talk about he put some guys in diapers they were -- sleep deprivation loud music food deprivation but everyone.
Talks about enhanced interrogation they think waterboarding.
He did it to three people.
Correct right Abu zubaydah Khalid Sheikh Mohamed explain what happened.
Cheney was Abu zubaydah and he's he he's a very tough individual.
And he it was something early information.
And then he stopped talking.
We -- dead in the water.
In May of 2002 and we we were very concerned about a second wave of attacks.
We had to come up with something new.
A psychologist expert that we had on any military training program.
That trains US servicemen.
Bring them in case they are.
They've taken prisoner -- -- assists in Costa we asked to.
Do we -- up alternative techniques.
That would do a number of things.
No number -- things but.
Primarily to let -- know.
-- was in our hands and then they have absolutely no control of the situation.
So even if so what you do is -- Which put him sideways you cover their mouth and then -- knows.
Pour water on you -- only do for.
What forty seconds his when he has -- -- that Macs but it was usually lasted about an average of ten seconds.
All right now.
President Obama has called this torture whom he wanted to close gitmo.
And he ran on the idea of ending rendition black sites here's what he himself said I want to get your reaction okay.
-- banned the use of so called enhanced.
Interrogation techniques by the United States of America I know some have argued.
The brutal methods like waterboarding.
Were necessary to keep us safe.
I could not disagree more.
Make no mistake that we will close Guantanamo prison which is damage.
Our national security interest in becoming a tremendous recruiting tool for all -- I strongly believe -- The steps that we've taken to prevent these kinds of enhanced terror interrogation techniques.
Will make us stronger over the long term.
All right the -- now taking credit for getting bin Laden if he had his way.
Of closing gitmo.
-- enhanced interrogations which calling people like yourself torturers.
Would we have gotten bin Laden.
We god -- lot of information from the detainees back eventually -- -- Latin.
And that's a fact and that it would air and you know and you saw the EU so you who watch this unfold what concerns me is that.
There is still held out there if people are telling.
You know he had -- -- information that we got from this program.
-- -- -- -- is to go after al-Qaeda and destroy al-Qaeda the al-Qaeda that attacked us on 9/11 is just amazing and yet you know -- -- -- now there's a -- -- was so you don't think we would have gotten bin Laden without the techniques leading to the intelligence.
Well and the reason why is because there's a clear trail you know there was someone that we captured a facilitator that we captured in 2004.
The -- about -- -- Earlier and gave us a pseudo name.
-- -- Kuwaiti and that was still what led to bin Laden in Pakistan and eventually we -- the -- -- of -- -- on the president's really not look I give the president credit for making the decision to get bin Laden I re letting -- seal team six all the credit and all our people intelligence but without these techniques.
With that hate the things he opposed wouldn't have allowed him to make that decision is -- -- -- -- that is a fair statement.
All right let me let me ask you this what do you say when you called a -- Does that mean to you considering you're trying to save American lives.
Well I stay in the book could that I was disgusted.
And my colleagues were discussed it that after we stepped up to the plate yeah.
To do what we have to do after 9/11.
And we answered the call.
We had a basically -- torturers and there's a controversy about the the waterboarding of Abu zubaydah.
Those were taped.
At one point you made the decision you -- you were given to two opportunities where they told you could destroy them and then you -- You know shredder and you did.
But peoples said it was a cover up.
And compared to Watergate what's your reaction that.
Or 92 tapes and the tapes.
Actually -- the faces of our interrogators and that the where a security.
Problem -- knowing that if the tapes were complete.
The security of -- the people -- going to was going to be compromised so.
They asked is can -- destroy -- -- -- that started three year.
You out of the lawyer you had to defend -- so we we don't know what -- three year old O'Neill was until I finally made the decision you made that call to go ahead and destroy and then two years later.
That story leaked and there was an investigation.
And there was a special prosecutor.
Assigned to investigate.
And it was a three year in the -- Think it that all of the people the working on behalf of the safety of Americans had those tapes -- like an arrest they wouldn't look pretty but you think their -- would have been in jeopardy.
I really do you do permanent one last question to you he saw the waterboarding of Abu zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohamed.
And he said Mohamed in particular was a very evil cold.
Individual Khalid Sheikh Mohamed to lose even more for an evil cold harbor but -- he was.
He's the person who -- the stroke of Danny Pearl the reporter -- caught on tape.
He was just pure evil and he was looking for different ways of coming after us you know he was the guy who.
Who back in 1995.
Came up with a -- -- block him blow up our planes in the air and then he followed up good 9/11.
So he he was he was the toughest toughest -- -- last less a question if we.
Abandon these policies.
Are Americans less safe now.
Well this this tools saved us and saved lives I am convinced that it saves -- it allowed us to.
Stopped plots against us and allowed us to go after all this terrorists.
We don't capture anybody anymore.
So we don't get the intelligence anymore.
Mistake it's a mistake.
-- already -- even think we captured we don't we don't we no longer have the discretion.
And that he would that we used to it and now we're.
We are bound by.
By the army field manual -- -- -- restricts.
-- any of this any of -- service.
Do for you did for the country's safety and I know you'll have your critics forever but I agree with you I believe the kept the country -- to -- the book is a fascinating regular member of revelation I really enjoyed it thank you very much.
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