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Travel back to -- we continue now with Jose Rodriguez junior former director of the CIA's national clandestine service and author of the new book hard measures.
All right so you talk about he put some guys in diapers they were nude sleep deprivation loud music.
Food deprivation -- one.
Talks about enhanced interrogation they think waterboarding.
He did it to treat people.
Correct right Abu zubaydah Khalid Sheikh Mohamed explain what happened.
The first detainee was Abu zubaydah and he is he he's a very tough individual.
And he it was something early information.
And then he stopped talking.
And we were dead in the water.
In May of 2002 and we we were very concerned about a second wave of attacks we have to come up with something new.
A psychologist expert that we had on any military training program.
That trains US servicemen.
Train them in case they are taken prisoner out who assist in so we asked.
-- -- -- Do we set of alternative techniques.
Do a number of things.
No -- thinks but.
Primarily to let them know.
-- was in our hands and then they have absolutely no control.
The -- -- -- -- and so what you do is leave which put him sideways you cover their mouth and then they're knows.
Pour water -- you -- only do for what forty seconds his forty I think the fact is that Macs but it was usually lasted about average of ten seconds are right now.
President Obama has called this torture.
He wanted to close gitmo.
And he ran on the idea of of -- rendition black sites here's what he himself said I wanna get your reaction okay.
I banned the use of so called enhanced interrogation techniques by the United States of America I know some have argued.
The brutal methods like waterboarding.
Were necessary to keep us safe.
I could not disagree more make no mistake.
We won't close Guantanamo prison.
Which is damage our national security interest in becoming a tremendous recruiting tool for -- Qaeda -- strongly believe that.
The steps that we've taken to prevent these kinds of enhanced certain interrogation techniques.
Will make us stronger over the long term.
All right the president is now taking credit.
For getting bin Laden if he had his way.
Of closing gitmo.
And being enhanced interrogations which calling people like yourself torturers.
Would we have gotten bin Laden.
We god -- lot of information from the detainees back eventually and it must've -- Latin.
And that's a fact and that it would air and you know and you saw the EU so -- -- watch this unfold what concerns me is that.
There is still held out there if people are telling you know he had -- -- information that we got from this program.
That he was that -- is to go after al-Qaeda and destroy al-Qaeda.
The al-Qaeda that attacked us on 9/11 is just amazing yet you know -- until now there's a lot -- was so you don't think we would have gotten bin Laden without the techniques leading to the intelligence well.
And the reason why is because there's a clear trail you know there was someone that we captured a facilitator that we -- -- -- 2004.
The -- about -- Laden's courier.
And give -- a -- name.
Act McDowell Kuwaiti and that was what led to bin Laden in Pakistan and eventually we got the -- -- Of -- Kuwaiti.
Yes on the president's really not look I give the president credit for making the decision to get bin Laden I grew -- -- -- seal team six all the credit -- all our people intelligence.
But without these techniques -- -- the things he opposed wouldn't have allowed him to make that decision is that a -- -- that is a fair statement all right let let me ask you this what do you say when -- called a torture.
Does it mean to you considering you're trying to save American lives.
Well I say in the book that I was disgusted.
And my colleagues -- discussed it that after we stepped up to the plate had to do what we have to do after nine elevenths.
And we answered the call.
We had a -- our president.
Basically Carlos torturers and there's a controversy about the the water -- of Abu zubaydah.
Bills were taped.
At one point you made the decision you -- you -- given to two opportunities where they told you could destroy them in and use a you know shredder and you did.
But peoples said it was a cover up.
And -- compared to Watergate what's your reaction -- that.
There were 92 drinks.
And the tapes.
Actually to prove to the world that we.
We're actually taking Carol for was -- -- we -- a concern on the outs that he was gonna die.
And then we we realize that the -- actually have the faces of our interrogators and that the where a security problem in knowing that if the tapes were -- -- The security of buying the people -- -- was going to be compromised so they asked is can we destroy distinction that started -- three year.
-- You out of lawyer you either defend -- -- we we don't know what hit -- three year old O'Neill was until I finally made the decision you made that call to go ahead and destroy and then two years later.
That story -- and there was an investigation.
And there was a special prosecutor.
Assigned to investigate.
And it was a three.
A year and did you think of that all of the people -- working on behalf of the safety of Americans had those tapes it's like an arrest.
It wouldn't look pretty but you think their -- would have been in jeopardy.
I really do you do feminine one last question you you saw the waterboarding of Abu zubaydah.
And Khalid Sheikh Mohamed and he said Mohamed in particular was a very evil cold individual.
At least Sheikh Mohamed who was even more for an -- -- the murder of my -- was.
He's the person who could throw off Danny Pearl the reporter content -- on tape.
He was just pure evil and he was looking for different ways of coming after us you know he was the guy who.
Who back in 1995.
Came up with the -- -- block him blow up our planes in the air and then he followed up -- 9/11.
So he he was he was the toughest toughest -- one last -- question if we.
Abandon these policies.
Are Americans less safe now.
Well this this tools saved us and saved lives I am convinced that it saves lives it allowed us to.
Stopped plots against us and allowed us to go after all -- terrorists.
We don't capture anybody anymore.
So we don't get the intelligence and more mistake it's a mistake.
-- already but even if we captured we don't we don't we no longer have the discretion.
And that he would that we used to now we -- We are bound by the army field manual which should -- restricts.
-- any of this any of this as well.
Thank you for you did for the country safety.
And I know you'll have your critics forever but I agree with you I believe it kept the country -- -- in the book is a fascinating regular member of revelation I really enjoyed it thank you very much I'm much appreciated coming up occupier.
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