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-- welcome back -- -- Matthew Alexander former senior military interrogator.
He is they supervise or conducted more than thirteen -- interrogations in Iraq.
His latest book killer camp -- held a special operations has forced -- down a notorious al-Qaeda terrorist.
Matthew thank you so magical and our program once again -- very much.
-- As you know what spurred us to invite you back on this -- book by Jose Rodriguez himself.
CIA person -- -- former interrogator who ran the interrogation program.
In Latin America and his book talks about how torture worked and he.
Defends that torture got information.
And have a number of suspects including leading to the capture and death of Osama bin Laden.
You disagree with -- Completely dispute.
-- -- let me start by correcting.
One thing -- Variances was not interrogator.
He wasn't trained interrogator and that was -- agents are trained as a.
They ran the attorney -- program being that's how we was introduced on sixty minutes -- That's correct.
He ran that program and he do about the Yankees.
Based on the back to -- psychologists warn interrogators either had -- -- observed -- interrogation.
So it's important at least to start with the fact Jose Rodriguez really knows nothing about interrogation and neither does.
But people that he relied on -- enhance.
Get your -- the case that a number of the people have come forward and supported the notion of enhanced interrogation IE torture.
We're not themselves interrogators.
That's true and -- they have yet produce.
To come out and say that these techniques are more effective or faster.
Report building evidence based approaches.
You know the other.
Percent of intelligence and a lot officials endorsed.
Why then would Jose Rodriguez come forward and be a spokesperson for the art of enhanced interrogation.
If indeed he's not himself an interrogator why would he be writing a book -- making these -- Woo -- my belief is that what this book really is -- continued effort.
To report any type accountability for torture during the bush administration.
A public Lee.
Of his defense case.
If it -- ever could -- McCourt.
In that case -- in his own words -- as year that you can attribute.
On the fact that they had to be that disable.
And the evidence shows that torture actually cost American lives to help it recruit -- of the detainees.
More resistant to providing information and a host of other long term negative.
-- also responsible for destroying.
Tapes or destroying the evidence of torture took place.
That's correct in what you -- is just to remove some ugly visual.
But here's another one of -- metaphors should -- uses because he's afraid to call it what it is which is torture.
Is actually kind that child you know I don't want been tortured people and that's one crime and then to destroy -- -- bad it's just talking -- And again we have no accountability traders -- Sheikh Khalid Mohamed is one of the people he claims.
We know what he was waterboarding many times and -- give us information he also talks about Abu -- by death as somebody who's.
With subject to these techniques a guy got -- information do you know for a fact that those particular individuals did not provide information based on enhanced interrogation.
Well Khalid Sheikh Mohamed actually lied about compartments -- into the he -- -- trick she did exactly what -- but it could change.
That torture it will get cute and that it's up toward -- -- -- -- -- -- -- It up with a -- at what providing huge contradiction but it was before -- Subject to change change tactics commitment when he was being interrogated using -- court building and -- upon.
FBI interrogator and is to fund account -- oriented book.
The black banners.
Which -- -- because the parts.
That -- acted in Ali's book of the CIA reject it out of Ali spoke.
About the CIA not -- interest what the FBI about.
About intelligence pick -- -- 9/11.
I'm our permanent.
And other -- are committed.
And and it Rodriguez book and the only conclusion you can make matters is that -- permitted -- -- book because Gregory is who is writing fiction.
That you you have cited other people.
In an op Ed piece you wrote.
About who who are interrogators.
Eric medics and implementing and Steve Kleinman.
Who have talked about the idea the torture is not work now.
You have acknowledge that you use a pseudonym.
Why would you not use a real name and are you vulnerable now appeals are well this guy -- really -- could he be using your real name what's behind.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- But my my my great -- my name Mac guy entered.
What that means that -- 21 -- my book because I was aware you know intelligent.
And my belief that using a -- would protect me from retaliation and academic retaliation it usually.
IDs are coming you know -- tocchet right now and -- translated.
It's Tony -- -- -- and that's you know widely available on the Internet now.
To show biz or -- using -- treatment at the time what does that still working in intelligence.
I say because you you came out with this when you were still in the -- -- -- I'm I'm cylinders there -- there now but I'm about to retire -- page don't think we're gonna.
I don't have any -- now being deployed -- Oh you know every time this comes up and I get calls and an over the minute we part company -- my phone to ring and they're certain -- number of people particularly conservatives.
Who somehow feel the torture is desirable this certainly an emotional component people feel.
-- these people deserve to be tortured and that what would you do if we're about to get bombed wouldn't you -- -- -- torture someone to get the information they like to use -- torture these enhanced interrogation or there ever.
Is there ever circumstance where torture.
Is worth used.
Well I think the media appropriately to think about the keys of the diplomatic -- which -- put it ever be appropriate use chemical weapon.
This shaped by.
Can we come up with situations in which you -- -- chemical biological -- to -- or any other type.
We know -- -- we used -- bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki and we use a nuclear -- so.
When would that still a debate I -- whether or not which would would should would you do we do the right thing there.
Break in and we could have killed -- -- bin Laden and Torbor it would mean you're exactly where he lives.
Using chemical weapons are using nuclear weapons but we didn't get it because -- weapons are legal even though it would take bribes.
So the idea that we can you can interrogation techniques which is torture.
Break the -- to save lives and one case.
But not uses and any other case it kind of looks certain that means we don't have soldiers when it out and he's playing cards even -- -- with tape by.
Good luck apparently don't do that would -- -- because they're unlawful or immoral and torture happens to be one of those things.
How wonderful ever said -- will ever come to the place in this country were you acknowledge that if we are to be the kind of country.
We really believe -- to be we would not support this or advocated any way shape or form that people actually understand that the reason we have a Geneva convention.
-- had an outlaw torture is to make our own.
-- our own people -- citizens less vulnerable should we ever be captured so I wish people would really understand.
Gallon -- -- point and then maybe that will be the day of reckoning you know it's when an American soldiers subjected to waterboarding in the region that enemy force in -- for using is that it did seem -- You know -- is going to be today -- -- -- we first maybe some people are start to realize.
That there is increasing besides just efficacy of why we don't -- torture about reciprocity in about -- parcel was treated the way.
The same -- that that we want them to be treated them how we would treat other detainees -- we have throughout.
-- -- American history and look at what worked it is.
We were fighting enemies who you can contact is okay to me talk about.
The -- and so -- -- adding to a suicide -- They weren't willing to surrender they weren't very easy interrogate.
Until there -- some compassion and then they were actually.
Providing information and and -- we didn't resort to torture.
Do you believe -- -- Bush Administration to be prosecuted for use of torture.
Not a 100% rise in and I don't say the bush -- I would just say that anybody who breaks a law should be.
Should be investigated and.
In particular within include George Bush himself -- Dick Cheney.
Who's attorneys apparently gave them the permission to go -- to do.
-- they've admitted -- publicly that they ordered the torture and that they would do it again I don't think there's any doubt that.
You're aware of the guilt lies and but I I think the first and -- Is to have a full accounting of all the facts which -- it's their release.
Reports on change and didn't he switches you know due out and the next month.
Yeah but -- -- is unlikely that's ever gonna happen we're not gonna go back and and are just -- -- not gonna go after a former -- vice president is just not gonna happen.
Well you know I think they're from other countries like -- -- Argentina into the and -- forty years ago.
-- in the years following in you know.
The bloody wars and mess -- the truck that took place.
As history has continued shown beating -- Eventually.
Should become Sheila justice and accountability even if it's after Christmas.
As an interrogator did you ever use these techniques yourself.
Now in fact -- physically stop.
People from using techniques.
At least one occasion.
And and several times and argue against.
There interrogators who wanted to use of extinction and make the point I'm making now about why which you and don't need to use them.
Well netbook is it's it's Matthew Alexander -- -- the book this name of the book is killer -- no special operations task force took down the notorious al-Qaeda terrorist.
Thank you drama to -- and I thought it was about this appreciate very much -- -- -- -- --
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