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Author and former CIA director of Clandestine Services, Jose Rodriguez, Jr., talks about the effectiveness of US drones
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Jose Rodriguez and he's written a book that reads well it doesn't even read like a true story reads like on novel.
And it reads like a suspense WV and the edge of -- -- if you.
-- as you pour through -- it's called hard measures and it's about.
Jose Rodriguez is experiences in the CIA after September 11 and the things that we had to do to keep the country.
Say began -- we're delighted to have you thank you for joining us.
Well thank you and thank you for that introduction.
That's that's that's that's.
Well -- -- great -- confessed spy novel but it's a truce by now well.
Yeah -- I ask you about the drone strikes we've heard in the last two days that.
Yet again we've gotten Al qaeda's number two in Waziristan.
And we've taken him out with a drone strike.
You're somebody instrumental in -- and a lot of the original -- policies of the united stations.
Do you think that -- how do you think that policy is stacking up now when you look at how we're using drones.
And how -- use them in the past where the advantages disadvantages.
Well the advantage is it's a very unique capability.
-- is a lot of flexibility.
He's very lethal.
It's very good when you have to use it in faraway places.
When you really have no reach.
So there -- many advantages.
There are a couple of disadvantages.
One of them is.
If you kill.
Terrorist you can't capture them and that men don't talk.
So you lose and someone that intelligence the other.
Disadvantage is that need you to use it too much you tend to destabilize.
The area of the country where you're using it so it's it's it's a tool that is.
Very good but it has certainly its disadvantages.
You know we talk about it destabilize his theory is that I think what you mean by that is you know you may take out one bad guy but every other people in the and the surrounding area standing next term family members were also killed.
Does that is so doing are we creating.
I'm another generation -- potential al-Qaeda recruits they -- I've -- and I -- diets are part of the world war and I for and I as the standard operating procedure.
In using these drone strikes especially you seeing them so frequently are we in fact creating.
Fertile ground for a new generation -- recruits.
Yes.
And you know.
I think a -- Obama spoke about the interrogation program have as as being good -- -- -- four jihadist well I think this is.
Actually.
-- just a tool.
That is.
Uniting a lot of people.
In the Middle East against us.
But what I meant.
Was that in terms of destabilizing is that you know in Pakistan for example.
There are armed tribes.
They're GO -- -- regional authorities in and there's a central government.
And I think we have to be careful.
Backed we don't destabilize politically.
The country because of the overuse of this weapon.
-- brilliance not to -- Pakistan the Pakistani government.
Has said when the United States criticizes -- I think you're not doing enough to help us.
Fight the Taliban fight al-Qaeda Pakistan the officials have told me former foreign minister of Pakistan.
Said -- you don't understand.
It's destabilize our country as well.
We've had thousands of casualties from Islamic extremists and -- cut and in the implication meaning you brought down on us.
How close is the relationship or was the relationship between matches in Pakistan and -- the state -- it now.
I could speak to this state of the relationship when I was in charge and when I was there and it as with many relationships around the world.
It's a mixed bag.
The CIA -- used to dealing.
In in great of shape of of of glory sure so.
They are some things that we did very well you know for example early on.
Capturing al-Qaeda terrorists in the settled areas of Maine -- was something.
They help -- out and was very effective.
But once we got into the tribal area.
There were issues there because.
Some of the ISI who had.
Worked in in the tribal area had been there for a long time and actually we're very sympathetic.
To the column -- with the enemy so it's -- mixed -- but you know it is our job to.
Continue -- with a relationship and make sure.
That.
We have been working relationship that works well and I can tell you.
What Alistair and others were there.
-- you know we were able to work effectively with the pakistanis.
And when you talk about when you were at -- CIA you know one of the things that we've seen in the last two years as president blasting him a lot of credit for taking out.
And bin Laden.
But in fact you were part of the group that did that -- -- intelligence gathering to get to the point.
-- it to us at -- and obviously without revealing any classified information.
These kinds of intelligence gathering operations.
-- mean how how they work is that.
Just -- -- intelligence from satellites.
An odd comment here -- there is it like finding a needle in the haystack.
Well this is -- -- at ten year effort.
It took -- that long and it's a combination of a number of discipline so of course we are.
The clandestine service we -- human operations and that's what we do best so others.
A lot of act.
Enhance interrogations are interrogation program was -- Two.
Getting the intelligence that allow owners to destroy the organization that attacked us on 9/11.
And then there are other agencies in the US government that provide a lot of really good stuff too.
So it's a combined effort.
But largely in terms of al-Qaeda and -- and after the high value targets.
It was the CIA and the kindness and service who did most of the work.
When you talk about interrogation are we interrogating.
Prisoners.
Today.
We're not interrogating high value.
Prisoners because we don't capturing body anymore.
Because we're taking them out what the drone strikes are these people that we could have taken out we couldn't -- JPEG.
Well I don't know but this individual that was just killed -- -- you know merit Lee is not way out in the hinterlands.
You know there are issues.
You know with capturing individuals.
And the travel area I mean it's not that easy.
But.
It seems like it's not an option anymore we don't do it.
And we'll -- it is we don't have any sort of take them but also because we have actually.
Restricting.
Lacked the intelligence community can do now we are bound by the army field blank.
So it's less effective.
So in other words it because of humanitarian reasons we're not torturing.
Potential.
Terrorists are prisoners where we don't want -- do that because that would be bad that when.
Cause America to get a black guy and we feel that it's tomorrow but on the other hand because we do want to get rid of these people are we do wanna.
Sort of take him out of action -- assassinating.
So we now.
Just for they're just for the record we never tortured anybody.
Any anything that we did.
Was -- want to authorities that we received.
And binding legal opinions certified by the Justice Department that there were illegal.
So everything we did was within the law.
But we don't do that anymore because you know the person decided that he'd want to do -- so.
We rely.
Maybe even over rely on beautiful -- techniques.
Think you know your question I wanted to ask you you make of all of the leaks that have happened -- the bin Laden raid.
Which we're all thrilled for and the president made a tough calling made a very good decision.
But as even secretary of defense Robert Gates said.
I thought when we left the White House situation room after we got bin Laden that everybody was gonna keep quiet but in fact everything changed the next day.
As the administration.
And John Brennan at the White House staff started briefing the press -- a lot of very.
Specific deet tails about the bin -- -- and then in the last couple of weeks we've seen the new underwear bomber the sting operation we got a lot of details about that.
We've seen and information leaking out now -- -- looks like it's intentionally leaked out.
About the cyber attacks that we're we're doing -- the Israelis in conjunction.
For the each other during against Iranian nuclear test for you make of all the second Senator McCain went to the floor of the senate yesterday.
Condemned the administration call for special investigation saying that.
These leaks were endangering national security.
But I really did I I do think they are endangering.
National security and they should be stopped.
They give away a lot of information.
I just what I read in the newspaper alone.
I just wonder why we are they doing its.
But it's of great concern.
And I'm glad that they are now looking at it.
And as a CIA official I think you understand I mean do you would you conclude them and by doing measly -- endangers our about a together intelligence going forward.
Absolutely.
Cost a pretty serious accusation.
Thank you very much Jose Rodriguez former director -- -- services in the CIA -- -- -- the top spy.
And his book hard measures thanks so much -- joining us thank you for having -- I really appreciate it okay we're gonna take over.
