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Of course this is a -- you know you don't -- to congress and then lie about lying to congress men lie about knowing you lied to congress.
And then not fire the people who do it did all of that.
And have it be anything but a cover up.
That was chairman Darrell ice up fired up this morning about operation fast and furious.
The gun running scandal that went wrong down a Mexican border -- on America's Newsroom this morning.
Those comments follow the discovery of what Centre -- -- says are bombshell.
Now when you need a -- to do and we went on to one do wiretap.
You have to get.
Approval from the DOJ they did that in operation fast and furious in congress and trying to figure out.
Who signed off on that at DOJ which maintains it didn't know anything about the bad stuff in fast and furious.
And what are the wiretap applications semite because if they said a lot of the stuff about the bad aspects of fast and furious.
Then that would undermine DOJ is claimed they didn't know anything -- -- imperious or how controversial it was.
Here's attorney general Eric Holder.
Last last year.
I'd be surprised if the tactics themselves.
About gun walking -- actually contained in those in those applications I've not seen them but I would be surprised if that was the case.
Well now chairman -- -- says of those applications for the wiretaps do.
Have the specific details and he believes that they've been misled by that you -- joining me now to discuss it David Rifkin a constitutional law attorney.
Former white house council under presidents Reagan and George H.
And John Flannery.
Former special counsel for both the US senate and House of Representatives judiciary committee's gentlemen thank you so much for being here so.
You know ice it now claims he's got the goods that he's been looking for to prove that DOJ didn't know.
About the controversial aspects of fast and furious and he believes that testimony by mr.
holder was not truthful when he suggested.
The wiretap applications they didn't have.
The juicy details if you will.
David if that is true where does this investigation stand.
Well we're moving towards unfortunately towards possibility of contempt.
For both mr.
-- -- senior DOJ officials but also talking -- -- about a for early poisoned relationship between the Justice Department and particularly -- very important -- Justice Department which is a criminal division.
And congress and that's very bad it's just inexcusable.
Because look we can debate the merits of fast and furious we can debate the merits all of its execution.
But one thing we should not debate in this day and age but you have to be candidate of congress.
Have to be forthcoming.
And even if mr.
holder did not know about -- things before testifying you should have made it his business to war and the notion that you have -- wiretap applications.
That war presented Cassini DOJ officials even in the summary.
And I used to see bush things -- -- as opposed to reflect puts an actual application.
The fact that people like Colbert testified that they -- knowing you think is just not credible.
-- know -- very unfortunate untimely -- that's the the democratic ranking member of that -- committee has said look holder and other top guys got summaries of the applications for the wiretaps.
They didn't get the actual applications so they they didn't know as much as I say is suggesting correct John.
Well that's correct but I I frankly have a lot of trouble with that.
I can't imagine the summary didn't say we have cartel drug dealers are getting guns and gun -- deliveries that we need the wiretaps to keep track of them.
I -- I do find it believable that the attorney general didn't know at the time what was in the wiretaps but I find it hard to believe white ever appear before congress without checking it unless he actually decided not to check what was in the wiretaps and and had to find out what is top deputies had reviewed before they signed off on the wiretaps apps absolutely and I.
I I don't know that the attorney general lawyer's assistant attorney general knew about it at the time and this is the problem when you have.
Politicians looking for headlines instead of investigators looking for facts we're getting ahead of it.
It doesn't mean we won't get where apparently the chairman wants to get.
And I'd be surprised if we do get that place -- -- he wants to get the attorney general but I think it's a terribly serious thing what we're releasing guns and on controlled deliveries the drug dealers and that's.
That's a stain on the ATF which.
You know you would think three strikes and it's out.
Waco ruby ridge this how many times do we have to look at them mess up investigations.
And disastrous ways.
And not just dismantled like we did the DN BD many years ago.
At the ATF and now an -- is look at ended the DOJ and why they didn't stop -- David I just want to give our viewers another SoundBite from Eric Holder talking about the guy.
He that John mentions the deputy Laney brewer is it is now basically the number two guy over there.
And heat this is what mr.
holder testified to in terms of what -- -- saw before he signed off -- these wiretap applications let's.
I think first off there's no indication.
That mister brewer wore my former deputy we're aware of the tactics that were employed.
In this matter until everybody became aware of them which is that.
January February of last of last year.
The information I'm not at all I'm not at this point we are there any of those tactics were contained in any of the wiretap applications.
And then ice assists today in fact the wiretap applications which DOJ had refused to provide -- -- show immense detail about questionable investigative.
Tactics -- he believes he's been directly misled David.
And how does DOJ defend itself is it really gonna just say -- won't just -- summaries.
Well first of all I agree my colleagues summaries which ought to be reflect -- -- -- -- -- borrowing -- consider.
What would have happened in the human in the national security context post 9/11 if -- -- -- DOJ officials say.
You know we approved a bunch of things but the summaries were so generic.
In the context of -- -- -- so wiretaps are criminal why tips on the title free that they don't tell us anything who have been hue and cry.
But I don't know what's worse the original execution sloppy execution of the program.
Or the fact that -- for Justice Department that had an adversary relationship of congress from day one.
Has zero credibility and again it's a criminal division we're talking about the most important aspects all of the power that the department is carrying out -- I am truly -- that's a self inflicted wound.
It should be done and bipartisan fashion I'm sorry that that member of your ranking member of Cummings is trying to defend the attorney general in in him in the -- -- it.
As I wanna -- Albert is as important we're talking about what whether this means some is gonna get fired out there may be leading brewer may be somebody else will do that -- at the break.
David Reagan and John -- rejoin me now -- the letter that -- wrote to mr.
You have consistently told us that inappropriate tactics used in fast and furious were not authorized by department leadership.
He says we now know that statement is false each and every wiretap application included a memo.
From the assistant attorney general Laney brewer and he says the close involvement of these officials much greater than previously known -- shocking.
John does -- that does Lanny brewer.
Get fired as a result of this.
I don't know the question is did Lanny brewer signed off on subordinates assuring him of something without him knowing about it I think it's a very different question if he knew.
In detail what was going on I find it difficult to believe that anybody -- review the sufficiency of a wiretap application based on a summary.
Since the summary may distort what's said in the application in May exceeded or understated and a way that is critical so I don't.
How the bottom of that John B and you get back to about -- -- a lot I don't have weathered many brewer really knew because he's.
He you know they -- -- when they go before congress and is Elizabeth -- -- the congress has over DOJ official.
Well that's the way they ask questions in congress they don't ask questions they make statements you need it if -- congress is gonna do you have to do the way I've done and in the past with congress -- conduct depositions.
And you make them depositions and you don't make them show trials the other thing you do -- you get an independent counsel the other thing you do is you seek to unseal these documents so we can all see what it is and so the public has an opportunity consider it.
And if you have -- -- redacted hopefully not everything but.
Exactly last word to David because I want to know what you think -- should go or somebody else to go because the reason I said knows all this is because he got these.
Wiretap applications through other means the DOJ -- has been refusing to turn them over now seems you know this may be why.
Very troubling I would say that.
I hate to -- I hate the notion of a special counsel but perhaps it's inevitable but I like the idea about a deposition exceptionally right you -- people like when you brought down -- -- maybe even general holder.
You get the documents in front of -- -- say let's look at the summaries.
Let's look at the actual wiretaps very important -- look at what efforts have you engaged in two.
To acquaint yourself in preparation for your testimony show what emails you send to your subordinates.
Heavy freezing or somebody who doesn't know your facts guys thank you -- so much appreciate you being here.
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