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Say nice to see you and congratulations and -- new book.
Thank you so much -- Sounded proud number question that sometimes so I'm curious that I know how rugged -- -- act out have you recovered physically and mentally from a from the obvious in very rigorous trial.
I don't think so but after this book tour is over I'm I'm certainly hoping to take an extended one for sure there.
But I don't know I don't think so just.
Think people realize how tough it is to try case -- we have such an exterior view but if you actually the lawyer trying to case.
There's really nothing like if you physically and mentally.
No not at all -- mean it's it's it's.
If it's very draining experience especially emotionally and physically as well.
The other -- it's always in a murder case and I I suspect at this and the experiences that.
People oftentimes think that you are sort -- the client any hate that they might have directed towards a client.
Is directed towards the lawyer as of a lawyer -- like crime in some way.
And I you know it's unfortunate that a lot of people look at our system that way and really don't understand it.
When in fact the defense lawyer.
It's it's like feel that it says there's a three legged stool without the defense lawyer it the system just can't stand.
And I see a lot of the hatred but.
In you can't let that affect you have to just keep on and they keep on doing your job and believing what you do.
And that's you know fortunately I've still with true believers so I have a little bit -- -- it mean to to push me and motivate me.
-- taking back to the first time you ever laid eyes on Casey Anthony when -- -- what he observed.
All right you know going back that time.
I can recall I was just going to the jail to visit another client.
Hadn't watched the news I hadn't seen anything on it.
So I had no idea.
That this case was even mentioned in the news.
-- he -- several hours afterwards.
As I walked in the very first thing I saw was this very attractive.
It was obviously a first timer and when you've been in the jails enough.
You know that certain clients are a little -- around the edges.
And others are a bit more refined and and certainly Casey felons for the latter which is -- look like she belong there.
And this was certainly her first go round.
And I remember we met behind a glass partition.
And she didn't seem surprised to see me.
Which you is -- very happy to see me.
And we Staten began to talk and one of the first things I notice about her was how articulate she was.
I think that a lot of people don't understand that about Casey she's extremely bright.
I I believe her.
IQ is somewhere near.
Once when he.
And I bet that was really the first thing that struck me about her and as we begin to talk.
It's I certainly.
Knew and and beating her arrest report that there was certainly more to the story -- Than just a simple child neglect case.
Did she seem young for her age or more mature for -- at that first meeting.
You know she she start -- like a college kid.
You know that the type of person.
That you would -- at your office to either work is the receptionist or or or to be the face of an office.
That was that was my first impression -- this is attractive bright girl.
I started the talk tour.
On the surface immediately you certainly don't detect anything.
Anything wrong with Casey Anthony or anything out of the ordinary other than those those types of characteristics.
Innocent -- I first -- the virus and a visceral reaction to -- I really liked them Orion.
Don't like them at all -- you know I'm indifferent to them -- sort of visceral reaction when you first Matt Harris.
You know I I like Casey right away.
-- You know throughout the course of the four years that I represented her.
There were numerous times that we bank heads and and and we.
Had verbal dispute -- But all in all.
Case is a very likable person.
She's very easy to work with.
There is there's certain things about her that that it.
The negative things that I -- that the times we bumped heads was really more me.
Trying to do demand more out of her then.
What is actually fare like in the book -- I I talk about times during the trial.
That I was I would argue with her about her demeanor in the courtroom.
And you know I was asking her to be.
To not be human now and to not react and make facial area expressions during some of the testimony.
And that's a lot to put on.
-- -- -- four year old kid who has never been in a murder trial before especially facing the death penalty.
-- your job is not to decide guilt or innocence your job is to effectively represent a client.
I'm curious did you did I didn't believer and I simply the story -- -- nothing doing -- did you believer.
Are you referring to early on or event I know I didn't let that managed -- -- she's -- whether she was do you directly responsible for the death -- I never believed it when when the denials.
Well you know what she told me what happened.
Because of the prior -- I wasn't so quick to jump on board.
So what I what I made the determination at that point in time -- look I'm dealing or my right now I've got the client of the boy who cried wolf.
And I've got to it if I'm going to.
Either put her on the stand or go in this direction as for her defense I'm gonna have to corroborated.
And I literally made the decision.
This is a situation where if I can't corroborate what she's saying.
And it's useless to me.
It won't stand up against cross examination so you don't really get into that you.
You know -- I still had that that defense lawyer hat on and I've always had -- -- -- you don't get it's that situation where your believing monopoly it's really about.
Doesn't matter what I believe it only matters what -- proof.
When she told me what had happened on June 16.
I went back all the way to the very beginning I said okay here's what I'm gonna do I'm gonna try and dis prove what she's telling me.
And if I can do that that's certainly -- war I'm well have to have another talk with her we're gonna have to get to get a little bit closer to where where we are with the truth.
And and what I was noticing is a couldn't disprove it.
I couldn't disprove.
What she was telling me happen on June 16 and in fact the things that she was telling me I was actually proving.
You know when I went back and read -- statement that on June 16 she came home and found.
The latter the pool up and then on the seventeen she went to work and told her coworkers about it.
You know the issue would it statements that I would read like George Anthony saying that.
Caylee would wake him up at 7 in the morning it's a -- swim -- swim.
And and then looking back we did a timeline of every single day.
She was in the pool over the summer and -- -- that entire week she was in the pool every single day.
Coupled that with.
Evidence that she -- the pool.
And then there was an incident with Tony Lazaro where she almost ran into the pool while he was -- was she was at his house.
It it all started to come together.
And then the phone records.
And the computer records just solidified it for us where we said -- OK we have a defense here.
And there right now there is it it's impossible to -- And and quite frankly I think I think that the reason it's a possible through -- because.
It's the truth.
Well I CEO Ivan in the backyard and then the -- -- home.
-- number times and I know your job is not to sort of seek out the truth you're you're -- so it's very different which most people don't understand but it's you know you're.
-- your job is to challenge the State's case effectively.
And an alert don't take position whether clients are guilty or not.
But I thought I actually found her story so implausible.
For a number -- reasons is that.
Is that somehow if if something happened in that pool that was an accident.
Is that somehow that child got from.
From that pool where the child died according to that theory to about five blocks away to that wooded area where the remains were found somebody did that.
And you couple that her fact that -- the fact that they Casey made that bizarre stuff the bugs -- and going out party in and dragon tattoos and all that so.
What -- -- well how did the baby get from the pool that's how she died.
To the five blocks away woods.
You know there's a lot of questions that we'll never be answered.
I want to know what happened to that duct tape after George.
Use it at the command center I want to know why.
He didn't tell law enforcement.
That for the last twenty years they had buried their pets these same exact way.
That Caylee was found.
I wanna know.
A little a little bit more about the car now why did he show up to pick apart the tow yard with with a gas -- How did he know the car was out of gas.
Why did he tell.
Simon -- that the car had been there for three years and I'm sorry three days.
How did -- know that if if you didn't know that if you thought the car was in Jacksonville.
So there's there's lots of questions that will never be answered.
Part of that has to do with the way the -- the case was investigated.
Another part of that -- be is because people just are talking.
You mean and -- looking back -- the case and others there was a lot of and you know a lot that went on about George.
I'll basin wages set I used suspicious that George.
-- that child of the Georgia as much more intimately involved in that child's death.
Well there are a lot of unanswered questions.
One -- suspicious testimony.
Well you know I I think I think that the of the questions are clearly suspicious.
But you know I wasn't there and I'm not the type of person that judges people were makes conclusions speculates.
So you know I rely on the evidence that's that's kind not only is it what I do it at as a -- it's what I believe is the right thing to do so.
I don't take those leaps of faith.
But I all I will say that is that there are a lot of unanswered questions when I ended up doing with the book is.
I wrote out what exactly where the pieces of evidence that took me in a certain direction what I thought about it and what I thought about the evidence that.
Exonerated terrorists what was the ones that were incriminating against Casey so.
That is that that's the a valuation and and analysis that I took in the case I don't but it.
It's a -- and understanding and that's the lawyer's job and -- -- did very effectively in the united to get them.
Best verdict you could for your client I I totally get that but you're also not a machine.
In a sense that you can just sort of look the other way that I mean there must be things -- -- -- she's protected by double jeopardy she can't get more trouble at all on this.
But I just Kerry say you know whether or not -- -- George or Bob -- that she was more involved because they would do yourself -- -- -- that child that child.
Ended up -- that burial spot not naturally.
All I can say is I believe our defense.
I believe that's.
What we ended up putting forward was not away in good faith I.
Looking at the evidence I didn't find anything -- which contradict -- so.
Again I know I know I'm I'm not a machine but at the same time that that's.
Pretty much we have built I look at the evidence -- analyze things are more of an analytical person.
I've been in that situation.
And I've been also the victim of speculation.
Numerous times and why throw that are on -- pay that forward I'm just.
I just don't think or work that way.
It's more of of the situation is it and if the evidence shows -- great if not.
But I think is.
Had the child been found the child disappeared about June 16 the challenge and -- -- July -- early August and not in December.
I think it would it could've been a very different case feeling is that -- thought that the biggest from the prosecution had is that they couldn't prove that the cause of death was homicide.
They -- and prove that the child was dead.
And I -- of one of the elements of homicide -- got -- show that someone killed or not just he died accidentally.
So and all the sort of the weather ended the elements in Florida.
Made it virtually impossible for the prosecution to to prove that one element that essential element beyond reasonable -- -- -- I thought that's what.
I -- his word palpable -- very helpful to the to the defense.
You know certainly.
It made it much more difficult for everyone to determine.
How Caylee died.
We we don't you can't say it would have been helpful for the defense if if an autopsy would have review -- resulted that or showed that she drowned so.
Given the situation you can't say one side -- the other unless of course -- you're sitting in sick and taking a certain position.
Which is okay she's guilty so therefore -- help the defense and -- prosecution.
I look I look at it a totally different position so.