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Dr Judy Kuriansky and Dr. Keith Ablow weigh in on collective support of processing school shooting horror
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To those sort -- -- I want to bring in our doctor Judy curry Penske who -- clinical.
Psychologist and an adjunct faculty member the department of can sleep.
And clinical psychology at teachers college Columbia University.
I don't feel so what -- the United Nations as well I and -- counseling and these sort of situations.
Way to begin.
-- on the first told the kids who sold the worst of this the kids who were told to walk out while covering their eyes presumably because there -- -- -- walker on the bodies.
Of their classmates.
How do you begin.
Love you begin I really giving them an enormous amount of hugs and love which is exactly what a lot of the community people that I've observed and that I've been helping that they've been doing.
And you help them by two things festival helping them to get back to summit.
Normal behavior in their life because this is so abnormal so.
Making sure that there eating the right times and sleeping the right times not staying up -- later because you're trying to indulge him in be kind to them.
Letting them sleep in bed with you if they really want to.
Distracting them by play and watching what their feelings and emotions are some kids -- crying some people are some kids are not talking some kids I would dry he.
Because they wanna be about a thousand -- scared to box out.
Talking to them when they need to.
Not I've observed for example had been that they read intermediate school which is where the counselors like myself are with the families and the kids coming -- I've observed kids coming into a very shy and you know scared and looking like this and are there.
Kids coming -- and hugging them and moaning man.
And so it's very interesting that -- -- are helping me child that people don't realize that if you watch that you can see -- at its very warm.
I have I have three young kids myself the question they always -- more than any other question about anything.
Is -- yet how do you begin to tackle the question of why.
Well they you have to be honest because -- -- parents are afraid to be that way.
And so as a psychologist is a black kids in all of -- -- -- lemon in Haiti and Japan and 9/11 and Katrina and all these tragedies.
And so what you really need to say -- you know.
-- people do bad things.
They get angry they get depressed and they do bad things and -- -- control themselves.
And that's why.
So if you have feelings when you get angry and depressed don't worry you had to do that but you can come and talk to me about them I think that's the best thing you must be -- you can't say things like.
It and I happen again I don't worry about it -- ST you know kids will will get back.
The other question that you know kids ask a -- is.
Will it happen again I hear that all the time that -- as I keep -- comic promises because that's my point and I had heard some people say.
Oh don't worry about it it's not going happen again mommy and daddy will protect Q yes -- will protect you.
That's good to say.
And we'll have the police and this city a lot of people will protect you.
But I -- that it won't happen again that's show because -- -- -- -- -- after -- and feminists about what.
Reality is it was one adorable.
Young kid who was there yesterday and and he had he would ask.
Are superheroes.
-- meal.
I've -- that I was very -- so I said to him if you want a superhero.
What would you have done in the school because he had been in the school.
So it's advantage.
-- He said oh I wouldn't I would get strong I wouldn't you know I would Catalan my you know you've got to let them follow.
-- fantasies.
About.
What's going on when you ready to to -- to have them talk about it.
And it's -- presumably there's no.
There's no won -- formula though for each different -- you have to let them deal all and and help them deal with it in their own way -- No one point -- that being on you can selling your own feelings letting them know you know UN.
-- -- What happened was really traumatic it was a terrible.
And this is we east to -- So you can put some words to it.
And -- -- announced by the way to do.
That you could lots of adults saying there are no words.
So -- -- certainly others of us and for as counts as we could put some words to it to just let them know it's okay.
So you've got to let the kids know also however you feel.
That's okay.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- At how old -- do you look at that how does that make you as a person.
Well thank you for asking I.
Very.
Traumatized.
I mean it's very traumatic for me to -- as there are times when I have -- I.
And it reminds me of of the traumas that I've been -- in my own life.
And that's what I noticed parents go through -- they remember their traumas I'm remembering my -- this.
It makes me cherish people.
Actually I helping it's an interesting thing it helps people to deal with their feelings so.
My helping I'm sure from a psychological point -- -- that's why they went into being a psychologist that helps me and I know then.
That.
I helped that he -- to help be true that.
And that hasn't been seen in these past three days pulling -- so I know that for myself.
And I know that you know for that wants a long conversation you've had.
With a child or apparent.
Over the past couple days -- -- -- stuck in your mind.
I -- I think.
The mother who lost her other child who was crying about that.
The little boy attention bowed to wanted to know about this to be heroes.
Little girl who was.
Crying because she said that she lost her best friends.
And shall never see them again.
I mean just gives me chills and.
Makes me really upset now me.
So all of those and every story and watching the child sitting in the corner not talking to anybody -- was heartbreaking because I know the pain that.
That he's going through.
So the main thing -- is how kids play me is important that's why in these child spaces where it save the children was.
One of the -- say in the school where we lasts so there was a big room -- A lot and nobody's allowed and the -- and allowed their say you walked into the school and there is.
I was just mounds of Teddy bears what we know this -- -- -- Teddy bears all the time all over the world and and 9/11 we were getting Teddy bears all the time to contact -- So there's toys everywhere.
And then as soon employers save the children in the kids are playing in the newsroom and we -- desire and and then -- the individuals families and so that's how the whole situation is -- What -- -- that we we heard on Friday a that many -- the first responders firefighters from right here this -- house and and some of the police officers who would that.
Going in the seeing that scene and -- not just not obviously.
Not just seeing the bodies of young children on the floor but the way in which they were killed shot twice.
-- in at least it in my in most cases.
And many of them many of the first responders were coming -- -- is hi is there a difference in canceling them to the children.
Agony because -- -- first responders all over the loud and certainly you know even after 9/11 tremendously.
And they were telling me you know they.
Rolled over -- their trucks had -- roll -- you know body bags.
So this is -- for these guys responded since he has seen those type of things those memories.
We'll we'll stick with them -- you know it is just -- have the same.
It's a workshop.
That's what's happening they'll have.
I've heard so many times you know -- sound goes off you know there -- -- their own children -- traumatized about.
-- -- -- You know the first responders there are going illegally and those memories of there -- no better.
And so it's it's the job of them collectively supporting each other -- -- seen counselors to really help themselves to.
To really process through the that what they sign and and to remember and that that's there that is their job that paid work.
They were really helping the world that way that gives them some sense of strength.
But it'll -- -- -- -- and they'll never forget I wanted to forget I mean I'm vs Condit tonight in CNN dead bodies there but we never happened that I don't there in my mind all those people who have suffered seemed dead bodies all over the place in other situations.
It never goes away.
I wanna bring in doctor Keith Kaplan now -- -- -- -- -- medical -- team as well.
Doctor -- we talked.
A little bit of -- the children we talked about the first responders.
What about the parents.
Who have lost children -- -- -- -- clinging to -- have what he's clearly for every one of them the most desperate time of their lives.
Well first I think it's important their -- clinicians who work with them and there should be clinicians who work with them.
And their friends.
-- the fact that they won't be able to fatten them.
The depth of the suffering of a parent who has lost a child in any circumstance.
Never mind in these incredibly catastrophic circumstances.
It helps actually when you tell parents I know.
I can't really be inside your heart and mind right now but I'm here to listen and you can tell me anything.
I can be very very helpful.
The other thing that I think can help them as the days go by is to suggest to them -- they're surviving this tragedy.
-- in a way they've been touched by something unspeakable.
And that -- meat -- moment or moments in life when they're called upon because of who they've become.
And because of who their children -- to demonstrate extraordinary empathy and sensitivity toward others and that we can't know now.
When those moments will be but that there.
-- will be those moments when they'll look back and say I was made tragically and I never -- wanted to be into this person.
Who can now relate to others and a special way and I'm being used in that fashion.
Those trends he hit day it does the school we -- we're told will be closed for months as a crime scene.
Decision yet to be made on whether it ever reopens from a psychological.
Point of view.
Whether you or a child.
Who was that on Friday or whether -- a child who is next to who would be going that in three years time it would it be -- -- two.
Never have that school used for children again.
Psychological.
-- speak ecologically speaking I think there's arguments on both sides because also in many traumas we do want.
To let kids go back to a place and people and to.
Revived it as as the being -- healthy place now as opposed turning into memorial.
So it's an argument he really in in the field and you could tell because people are debating that's right now you know on the other hand it let it be because you don't want to me.
Me you know -- on from my point of view I would say change the venue and because it just was too much carnage.
Too many memories and the kids were too young and and so that would be how I would fallen.
Those are look she'll what's your view of that led to this school should be closed permanently -- do you think.
It's good deferred any of the kids any of the parents involved.
To be back there at some point from a psychological point of view.
I don't see much to be one from keeping this place open I'm not sure that there's anything to be one from keeping it still standing.
And so I would opt for a change of venue.
Let the kids have a fresh start.
Something because in other words that big game to be potentially.
Enjoyed.
From kids being able to walk back in and -- overcome my fear of walking back into this particular building is dwarfed.
By the potential.
Fear it will inspire and trouble that people will have an -- Big imaginations and re experience things that they can have simply by looking added -- more or path we're remembering.
Sounds that there were horrifying so I would say take it down.
But don't tableau would -- and I wonder as well.
But what do you think.
About these first responders who have to deal with -- all of this we were talking with a two Koran -- about that.
That that trained for so many things.
But -- can't possibly be any training that prepares them for what they witnessed on Friday the first ones -- -- that school.
No there there there isn't and this is why -- think my profession exists.
Talking these things that.
Using medicines by the way in the early going to some times blunt.
The worst of the anxiety involved to restore sleep patterns all these things matter later on and remember Jonathan.
No individual is necessarily like any other so it will be very different for someone who was -- first responded to this scene.
Who had suddenly lost a sibling earlier in his or her life and now.
Is re traumatized by this that it might be for someone who's been to war.
And for whom this is a horrifying.
But.
Less unexpected.
In some small way event.
So everyone needs to be seen as an individual and you know people can heal one another that's the miraculous.
Fact.
And I encourage each of them to say listen -- reason my hand I need to go talk with someone.
And I need to start now.
Okay it's -- don't have any interest thing that happens there's some behind him.
That is fair -- magic -- that happens between people who would not necessarily talk to one another.
But when a -- like this happens -- and then they they do I observed that in the school that there -- neighbors soon.
Tether but we saw each other and they knew they had that common bond of what happened doing immediately.
Holding hugging falling into each other's arms crying and did you know had -- tethered -- force him.
I think is what happens in crises like this same with the first responders able you know it would seem tired to me that's why.
When the president last night was talking about resilience in coming together we hear it you know so much -- that -- That's the reality -- what it's not just words it's communing what happens all of that even you.
Because people can't pay attention to the -- and even in the media has these feelings of trauma and hearing about it now learning about it being triggered -- that that -- is saying about the -- -- the experiences.
You bond in a way that is shows strong.
We've with people and that's part of the healing what we called post dramatic growth as opposed to the best dramatic weight yet.
Don't tableau -- took a little bit -- attack Adam Lanza.
The shooter in this obviously killed himself.
That's what ended this horrific.
Attack when he hugged the police arriving that apparently as far as we know.
-- killed himself.
Now Adam -- so we have heard various reports may have suffered from Asperger's syndrome which is not though is it doctor some thing.
Necessarily associated with a violent episodes and certainly not associated with anything like this he may have had Asperger's.
But that's not a -- all of what happened on Friday as it.
Jonathan it can be related in the sense that people with Asperger's may have less in the way of human connectedness soon.
They may be more vulnerable to other kinds of psychiatric disorders teaching more mature -- them.
But this is not the result if you will of Asperger's syndrome something else happened.
There was either -- psychotic.
Illness -- co existed with the Asperger's.
Or something in this -- -- like this stuff.
From all of this feel like you remember this is don't do supposedly -- -- report couldn't feel physical pain.
But that could be a psychological.
Reality because he's so cut himself off from suffering having -- Some set of circumstances.
That he can no longer resonate with his own pain or that of anyone else and we shouldn't pretend because -- average for him.
-- -- fairway which is mother apparently triggered disabled psychiatric we've just ordered son could be a marksman.
That's really bizarre.
And it invites questioned the -- What other psychological realities existed in history --
