You're watching...
Arthur Schirmer faces separate trials for killing his first and second wives, but does the evidence add up?
Also in this playlist...
Auto-advance: ON
Auto-advance
This transcript is automatically generated
But first the Pennsylvania pastor charge of murdering both his wives.
Pastor -- there -- -- first came under suspicion in 2008.
When a man committed suicide in his office.
The -- and discovered -- was having an affair with -- wife who is the church secretary.
The pastors extramarital affair causing police then to take a second look at the mysterious deaths -- -- to former wives.
The first is found in a -- blood at the bottom of the stairs back in 1999.
The second wife was killed -- a car accident in 2008.
Or so they thought.
Prosecutors now say the car accident was a cover up for murder.
And today in Pennsylvania -- going to trop -- that murder so what does please miss the first time around with both.
Former LAPD homicide detective mark -- joins -- and mark.
Good evening news good evening Greta.
-- -- -- I ask you what happened what do I -- Betty -- Shermer why is she suddenly the seven -- -- murder trial.
Well it's pretty obvious the evidence and change in neither case -- the first case who we really have to consider.
Relate be responding officers.
The detective.
-- what experience they have it looking at similar.
Cases where you'd have an injury of blunt force trauma as a murder verses an accidental death among the detective or.
I don't know what the system is there or the police officer determines that this is an accident.
Or this is questionable we have to classified as a homicide that's what they messed they -- deserve an accident.
Too rapidly instead of make it in a homicide and took the time to actually investigate.
The injuries and where they came into contact with the stairway.
That will trance for the transfer.
Skin skin cells blood saliva.
Fabric and if that didn't.
-- actually connect -- match today and you've got problems that need to be answered.
I guess if -- weren't they invest -- Hamas are is investigating detective in the case -- -- -- homicide detective but the detective.
And I went -- the scene and I saw -- murder the pastor husband says it's an accident.
I learn at some point that there is about nine years earlier another -- another death of a wife and that's an accident.
I think I would be suspicious and go a little bit further and not be so quick they haven't accepted as as ever not.
Coincidences do happen but the ads served rather than they -- the odds are against him that dead -- -- two dead wives that would have.
-- -- -- Well I think -- we both remember Drew Peterson let's go back there -- what are the odds there.
Well the odds were our gut feeling our gut feeling was exactly right in the detectives have the same gut feeling.
But you have two different agencies that were involved in these two different death but let's look at the first long before we look at the second -- the first one.
You you have to understand that the preacher who was a pillar of the community he had stature he was basically.
And alpha male in the community and so to bring this as a homicide investigation.
Might take a lot of doing for -- somebody other than the detective it might be somewhere up.
In the department to administration that would have to actually enforce that and I think that is one of the problem.
Well and since some point they determined that the car accident which so wife number one died.
The cut the speed of the cars less than 25 miles an hour and they found dried blood in the garage.
You know if that was about the time -- death there was that does sometime is that after they decide to go back and take a look at this at this mysterious death.
It's hard to tell exactly what the time is but let's let's be honest if it's longer than within 24 to 48 hours you're gonna have a problem with the blood evidence in -- in the garage.
He makes an excuse TV in the suspect the pastor makes her excuse -- they cut themselves.
Piling up -- in the garage quote that doesn't pass Muster but.
Greta there's one thing here that really it is so easy when you have a one person witness that could be the suspect or just could be the the husband of a victim and that's a polygraph.
If they would have done a polygraph on the first case.
The second case what kind of I have occurred now what are we talking about -- -- -- -- Drew Peterson case.
If you blow the first case or you don't do it to the extent it should because of the stature of the suspect.
Or the victim's husband.
Then you're gonna pay the price in the long run and this woman paid the price.
Well I suspect was about this in -- said that you know the as it is a preacher out of the past that it stature in the community it's unlikely if -- -- mean if they've -- believed there was an accident.
And they have a grieving husband they're not gonna say don't let's say I'm hopefully get a polygraph of -- -- -- -- -- is gonna say no at least don't expect but so that.
Tea act you know I think I think my suspicion Marcus -- this is a community doesn't have a lot of homicides so -- don't necessarily assume first as a homicide they assumed there was an accident and so they've you know they go from that I think.
You know -- in many ways nicer communities that don't have a lot of murders are not suspicious and don't look for those clothes in my right Iran and that.
Well -- you're right but it's not an excuse.
You have to use your common sense your your police officer your job is to be suspicious your job that your job is to put together the puzzle that other people just -- it it is as just the word of mouth of somebody.
Saying this is what happened well.
The evidence and fallen down the stairs I've never known anybody that's even been unconscious falling down -- But I don't think you have either so I went -- death with -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Thank you now.
Now what some peculiar about this case it was actually a suicide the -- law enforcement to take a second look at the pastors to wife's -- But what Clinton general the deaths homicide the second time around forensic path -- doctor Michael Biden -- is actor Michael Biden I refund on this did you suspect that.
Accident or do you look beyond -- and think maybe your -- show under some some other way you ended up.
-- of those injuries Greta that's what we do autopsy is and the fact.
The forensic pathologist who did the autopsy who has a big experience -- he even worse in many different counties.
His testimony was released from the grand jury in nine.
-- earlier this year that he said he thought it was a homicide because -- -- fourteen separate.
Blunt force injuries to our head and face that couldn't -- happened from a fall down the stairs.
But somehow.
The Carner when they -- the destitute -- get.
-- said the manner of death was undetermined.
Rather than homicide or accident what.
But that's interesting why -- the -- -- to speak up but that went honey go from 141 death.
Blunt force injuries in his golf think it's a homicide and in a Smart community must hear later that Dawson -- between your.
They are experts scientific medical background it corner comes along and says -- I was an accident.
Because in many communities have to community -- and in the United States the Carner.
Who is usually not a physician.
Who's elected -- and funeral director.
Is the one who makes the decision as to manner of death.
So the matter and you speak up.
Would you speak up I mean if not professional person an elected official.
Well -- overrides your medical professional judgment stock homicide to -- life for whatever reason.
This is accident when you speak up.
But absolutely.
Greta however.
That the -- the problem is the -- -- hires a pathologist to do the autopsy.
The the -- does does the autopsy says whatever he thinks.
Who is appropriate and leaves and then the deaths -- -- -- -- issued by the Carner.
And the manner of death is issued well the pathologist is far away that happen in the pins -- it's and -- also remember.
There was an IQ is today the Carner issuing the cause of death threat in the forensic pathologist.
I didn't read what the first the first death of a car -- 25 miles per hour about 1999.
-- -- -- -- -- -- The the that's what the trial was about now the the the UVs and second death Betty.
The the car accident.
Or was situation where.
The car goes off the road the husbands it.
The good pastor says she was driving at 2 o'clock in the morning to a hospital because -- had some pain in -- jaws.
She wasn't seat belted a dear radical Royce he he swung off the road struck some thing head on.
And she went into windshield and had extensive injuries to her head and face.
The -- in the air bag didn't go off.
If the impact is more than ten -- twelve.
Miles per hour if you're not wearing a seatbelt.
It would going off so -- the amount of injuries was much more severe.
Then the speed which the car was going and the impact speed so that should have been a clue right away that there's some moral of that story.
And you're air cigarette that was so wife number two and that wife number one I was mistaken that -- about that was the -- -- with -- -- -- The same issue though with the autopsy is very helpful because.
This is going to be -- what's at issue in the next few days as the pathologists in the detectives.
Testify as to how much damage but it sounded like -- had enough damage to her face and head.
To cause it to die and that doesn't happen if they're big doesn't go up.
Everybody thank you -- thank you now.
