Power Play 5/15/2013
Snooping on reporters: What's allowed? IRS scandal taxes Obama credibility. Plus - Immigration bill at the crossroads
May 15, 2013
Andrew Napolitano, Byron York
Snooping on reporters: What's allowed? IRS scandal taxes Obama credibility. Plus - Immigration bill at the crossroads
May 15, 2013
Andrew Napolitano, Byron York
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This transcript is automatically generated
Now my question isn't about who's kind of resign.
My question is who's going to jail over this can't.
That was house speaker John Boehner.
He was talking about this scandal which scandal well you have many to choose from these days -- -- -- The -- he was talking about there though was the admission by the Internal Revenue Service that.
Their agents did in fact.
Target groups who had a conservative agenda.
And subjected them to scrutiny harassment etc.
And he wants to know who's going to jail.
And this is power play.
We have provided for you today someone who in the past and it's rears its head to answer that question about who is going to jail and for how long.
This judge the -- on a judge Andrew Napolitano is the Fox News senior judicial analyst is and probably already is but you -- -- at judge -- And judge.
You've you've had two you've had -- -- that way away.
Your services may be needed soon and watch him.
Perhaps the the -- scandalous -- -- want to which I believe the speaker was referring he was is is very interesting there's no criminal penalty.
For increasing the scrutiny on a given taxpayer that's an abuse of discretion.
By an agent or supervisor or or a group of IRS employees.
And -- it's -- gross abuse of discretion if it happens just on the basis of political opinion which is what appears to be the case here.
The remedy is the person loses their job however if the information that -- -- continues to leak out is true.
And that is that IRS agents revealed the contents of documents filed with the IRS.
To people other then the filers.
That is a criminal event and someone could be prosecuted for that.
And the speaker is apparent hyperbole will be reality somebody -- go to jail for that that's a great thing about Washington occasionally.
Hyperbole turns into reality.
Not often -- I can understand his his anxiety this has happened FDR.
JFK LBJ the most famous Nixon now Obama.
Presidents of both parties have used the IRS for political reasons it is one of the reasons.
That the IRS has so much discretion congress really wants to be able to use it app -- -- president use it as a tool.
But this particular use of it at this particular time if it involves.
Leaking private information.
Would be a -- that.
-- well and especially it is it is especially true that.
And if we think about it was -- or no ranking -- -- liberties and powers of the government the greatest power presumably judges to the taking of a life correct that the federal government has the power and after -- jurors -- process to take someone's life who's convicted of -- crime capital crime they can take your liberty they -- -- imprisoned yet -- -- -- process they can -- -- to serve in the military instrument prison.
But taking your money -- got to be the next thing right now now.
You you are so right Chris because the constitution says if they want life or liberty or property.
They have to have due process right except for they -- -- -- the -- -- don't get a jury trial to determine what your taxes are if you disagree with the IRS they're gonna take the money and then you have to challenge the IRS after they have taking him.
Now I want to getting the wrong thing you might -- something that built somebody recommends to stop me if it gets out of it.
When I get everything you do what I did I get more.
You we need your legal expertise on the Florida your question.
And it's an emotional one for -- -- day media person.
About the department of justice and what has been called down over broad.
Taking of documents -- at the Associated Press found records on some hundred journalists they're -- years and everything.
And it's got -- it's got -- kind of freaked out.
And there and rightly so -- you know a person whose work you and I admire a lot the great journalist bill sapphire.
Used to call -- Department of Justice in the Carter years the department of political justice and that is as an appropriate nomenclature for what we've what we've seen here.
Chris is only three mechanisms.
For obtaining phone records where you're looking for phone calls that have already taken place.
We're not looking to listen to phone calls as they have.
Happen and we're not looking to listen to phone calls that may have been recorded.
We're looking for billing records who did the -- person that uses the phone call.
And who did the person uses the phone receive a call from.
First way to do that is to present evidence of probable cause of crime.
To a federal judge and get a search warrant if that's the case this search warrant it executioner of the search warrant FBI agent shows up at the red telephone company.
No notice no warning here's the here's the search warrant give -- the records.
The second way would be for a grand jury investigating a crime to subpoena the records.
When a grand jury subpoena is served and there's no probable course requirement there's no intervention of a judge but you must tell.
The custodian of the records that you're coming.
And the target of the records that you're coming so that the target has an opportunity.
To give it to you voluntarily.
To negotiate down the scope.
Or to challenge it before a judge and that's and that was the -- -- point just as her idea he's point was.
You never even talked to us about doing this you just can't resist the crystal clear in the federal rules of a criminal procedure the attorney general knows this deputy attorney general -- knows this the assistant US attorneys in charge of this.
No the federal rules of criminal procedure better than anybody else in the system they all know this there is a third way to get these records.
And that is under the Patriot Act under the Patriot Act FBI agents can authorize themselves to obtain records from third party sources the third party here being the telephone company.
But they may only do so if they can certify that this is for a genuine investigation.
In which they are seeking to pursue terrorists.
That is not the case here they're seeking to pursue a whistle blower a leaker in the government that kept playing old fashioned crime.
It is it is a leak up out of an act of terrorism but it is not in pursuit of someone who may inflict an act of terror on us so the Patriot Act here would be.
Highly inappropriate if they use that so whatever they did right if they want to a federal judge.
I'd like to see the affidavit they gave the federal judge which persuaded him or her to sign a search -- especially one so.
-- correct so broad as this if they served a a subpoena from a grand jury I'd like to see what they told the grand jury and I'd like to see they're notice to the people whose phone calls they were getting the records of which we now know didn't exist.
And -- they use the Patriot Act I'd like to see what FBI agent.
Eight said in his affidavit FBI agent.
18 authorized -- disease these records.
I think -- that they use the grand jury subpoena and I'm gonna guess that they used it improperly.
Now the group Eric Holder.
-- enough -- attorney general -- this innovator in general.
The fast and furious and -- he has been a lightning rod for controversy he's -- testify in -- Bob good lap it was pretty -- he could sell tickets that gas price would be very pretty -- -- -- -- worth it at 1 o'clock today eastern time he's -- about good -- chairman of the Judiciary Committee is fellows we'll have a chance architecture or what will expect to hear from the attorney general on the questions that you just raised is this.
I don't know because since I was.
Since the probe touched me.
Personally since I have interaction with the media and I do this since I could have been -- -- Brooke I recuse myself and I believe deputy in charge of it and it's fine.
The way to interrogate him is to have.
At that featuring general -- Mr.
-- at this and you didn't know about it -- you did this in the attorney general didn't know attorney general holder you know the federal rules of criminal procedure.
That's the life better this cat will -- examination with the -- that the judges on the panel at the house today the tickets would double in price you know very kind last question is this.
The attorney general sense that he and is agency.
-- that he has directed his agency to undertake it probe of what happened with the virus.
Now from him just a political point of -- speaking from the realm of cynical politics.
The ability of an attorney general who has got it that scandal in a couple of more.
Dangling around him this is it Eric Holder calling right breathtaking guy -- locker -- -- -- we going outside -- building.
Is it possible effort for the Justice Department to fairly undertake an investigation of another agency inside the Obama administration.
Indians in this atmosphere probably not I'm not suggesting.
That there are people that there are there isn't anybody with the honesty to do -- I'm suggesting that the pervasiveness of politics in all this.
And -- -- in favor of an independent probe of of what happened and how it happened and who did.
-- -- Now you know.
You'll know more tonight when you -- the judgment handle it right there in the team right yes yes it will be good at 6 o'clock eastern should tune in and break yourself more thank you judge pleasure for us.
T three day party I don't know what that's supposed to mean -- -- -- -- -- three day party says this I'm actually impressed by the restraint -- the -- they were athletes guilty of playing politics of these scandals as the left claims they would have voted for impeachment.
Well given the minute you don't know that that's certainly possible.
Isn't anyone listening I note that there should be sarcasm font on this come -- give the president give our prison break.
He's been concentrating on jobs and hasn't had time for this other stuff sarcasm.
-- it is an excellent let's think.
We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back a couple of your favorites will be here what Byron none other than Byron York and David Mercer in -- and we will enjoy it -- -- FBI is coordinating with the Justice Department to see if any laws were broken connection.
With those matters related to the IRS those -- I think as everyone can agree.
If not criminal they -- certainly outrageous and unacceptable but we are examining.
The facts to see if there were criminal violations.
That was attorney general Eric Holder.
And as speaking at a press conference that was supposed to be about Medicare but of course ended up being all about the two scandals that are intersecting.
In the Justice Department right now one.
That he wasn't talking about this he says he's -- cues from the questions -- relates to these.
The documents that were taken from the associated press and about their reporters and the other one that -- -- there was targeting of conservative groups by the IRS.
This is power play so.
How is how is everybody bearing up under all of this in the toughest week so far for team Obama.
People who know certainly our David Mercer he is we got it I have to take a long and he -- its title he -- A democratic strategist and former deputy national finance director for the Democratic National Committee he is follow oval at -- -- And Byron York you're title is longer than this you are listed here is correspondent for the Washington examiner but you are as -- -- senior political correspondent.
I'm afraid it's even it's slowly cheat officiating.
Yeah -- so these -- -- -- they don't get cheap seats senior not yet.
Chief chief already senior and time we won't tell Barone.
OK so the question guys is this.
The we've heard what actually let's just play because it's fun -- let's hear what Jay Carney -- -- -- -- in the briefing yesterday about this question.
Why the president is not consulting with the Justice Department about this a -- record seizure stuff.
I mean imagine that story on fox.
If that -- to happen that.
So that's why you're not supposed to say that.
You're not supposed to say it out loud imagine the story on fox if we were to do that you're supposed to stay with the high minded -- -- right David.
Well -- I you I would not have mentioned fox and yeah.
I would move on this story living rent free society is -- -- -- they're getting better at it that.
So well but in terms of the communications effort here.
That we heard Robert Gibbs on MSNBC yesterday and we've heard others.
Starting gently and becoming less gently saying the president can't be looking at.
Asked if here and the answer can't be we don't know we don't know we don't know we don't know when you have all this stuff cracked off the same time you gotta start Nolan and do -- And I think that's the phase that we're in now.
As you alluded to holder.
Looking -- to what happened at the IRS.
There is -- -- story.
There's been -- there's a slew of issues that are are rising that had not been anticipated.
And that is.
Outside of what the agenda was proactively with regard to the economy immigration.
Gun -- now you have some items emerging onto the agenda.
Which in -- second term.
We've seen in the past.
Where any administration not only needs to.
Be proactive and promote -- agenda but the same time.
Guard against situations like this and we're in need gathering stage of what really -- transpired.
And to get a handle -- -- to make sure it's not repeat that.
But but but but surely.
Surely this would be a good opportunity for some preventative maintenance.
That the president would have the authority that he -- go -- -- say.
Everybody who was within a thousand cubic feet of this IRS thing.
We're gonna pay you but you need to leave the office right now need to step that you need to step away while we conduct this probe.
This very serious business we don't want anybody who did anything wrong having any access any files or doing anything wouldn't that be a good way to shouldn't -- we were serious and needs.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- But the problem is is that Republicans control the house I mean do people need to kind of remember how this is happening have been -- of talking points came out because Republicans controlled house got it out of the administration.
The IRS investigator general did.
The the inspector general -- did this report.
Because Republicans were pushing on them.
There is this fight going on Republicans are finally getting a little traction.
In this and Obama needs to realize that this is going to continue as long as they hold out.
Sterilized -- not stocking up on I -- troops insurance.
I wanna get going giving it a little breaking news we have this sentencing has been completed.
Doctor Kermit does now in Philadelphia.
Is incensed to life in prison without parole for the murder of -- -- sentenced to two and a half to five years of the involuntary manslaughter of the of the adult woman.
And ten to twenty years for a handful of conspiracy charges.
And no no -- punishment on remaining charges.
If if this sentence would have to be changed.
In order for him to ever get out of prison life without parole in some places doesn't really mean that.
In Pennsylvania it tends to mean that judgment -- -- sentence that's that's that's that's the case.
It's -- -- I have some of the -- -- it beyond Eric Holder and justice of you know -- you also have by.
Order of the president.
Lou the secretary of treasury.
Coming from the internal angle on what transpired and to take corrective measures.
Whether that is.
Identifying the individuals that were party to this.
And to remedy this situation so.
There's almost a -- a host of fronts.
-- -- actions being taken to get our arms around what's going on.
On these issues.
Sort of the problem.
For this is that it came out the terrorist thing came out -- and didn't already semi baked formed right -- This inspector general thing had happened and you heard this kind of ludicrous scenarios of Jay Carney saying if these things happen if this -- triple intimate the inspector general the IRS says they did happen.
In the head of the unit apologized and report but the report does not go very far suggests there's no political motivation even -- it seems that all the special scrutiny -- and -- in one direction.
It suggested perhaps the lower -- who were doing is we're doing it to save time.
And so there's clearly a lot of things that they have two different opponents are not going to accept say.
Enough with it's it's.
I don't know why it's I would say it's not it doesn't say -- it well we have reports today actually that they can if not rushed.
Got liberal groups through to their approval much much faster than.
Conservative groups anyway this is something that we're.
Republicans are gonna keep asking and asking -- asking White House needs to understand.
Well and so and lets lets think about that David.
-- the issue for the president is.
And I keep referencing it because I think it's important and I would really encourage -- -- -- -- -- bites of it tomorrow.
President gave a speech to Ohio State.
On the fifth of -- commencement.
And he said these people that tell you that tyranny is around every corner of these people that tell you that -- that the government is the root of their problems these people who say that all of this stuff basically said they're not on the level.
They're trying to get special favors for the Coke Brothers or whatever that -- wicket.
And that government is the best device for mediating the problems facing a Mars Society.
It tends to make that case harder when you have and we've already heard the defense today.
From David Axelrod and others so what the government is so big and unwieldy of course hideous things occur because when you have this many people we've got all these employees -- -- our of course bad things are gonna hurt but it's not Barack Obama's fault.
But that doesn't exactly make people want to say yes it's time for more activist government.
I think in any situation.
You have on situations like this arise.
There are some bad apples are people that don't behave accordingly.
Public service and that has to be monitored it has to be rooted out.
And it -- you're gonna have instances like that.
I don't think you throw the baby out the -- -- just because of a few of these instances that are -- There were looking into that you.
Inventing -- go -- and claim that we don't need government.
Tonight we we need Smart government.
And as part of Smart government we need to keep to a minimum situations that have arisen whether -- at the IRS or elsewhere.
This -- led to a lot of -- Tweets from -- say things like government is -- name for the things we do together like seizing journalists.
And -- on this but it does extend beyond the immediate review these scandals for example.
The IRS is the main enforcer of obamacare Obama -- -- not work without the IRS.
citizen we'll have to present a document to the -- show that you have.
Qualified health coverage they will look into your financial records submit -- to Department of Health and Human Services to see if -- available for.
A subsidy the IRS makes Obama here work and that added to the degree that it's under eight -- -- under big dark cloud right now.
That's a problem.
Visibility that is well now I don't want to -- -- have been haven't won Byron York here and not talk about this.
Story that you have covered.
Better and more than well.
Better -- better all of that is a subjective description that I will leave to others -- but with the with the tremendous zero -- and I would imagine Marco Rubio believes unrelenting.
Is the question of the game -- immigration bill.
-- David I want to start with you on the topic.
It's looking now.
That this and we've talked about this before you've talked about the need for it for both parties with the desire for it but among Democrats -- the need.
For Republicans and you in the past have said that urgency is such.
That this is -- something's got that something's gonna happen here is that still.
I think it is -- true but let's not belong.
Think that it just happened over the last couple of months George W.
Bush sought immigration reform.
I didn't get it through so there's been an evolution.
-- since George W.
But at the same time on there has been a an erosion if -- -- Hispanic support for the Republican Party.
We're seeing that hugely affected by the heritage foundations.
Recent report and those that were offered to it but at the same time he's seen from when George W.
Bush was president.
-- of Hispanics -- form and that's down to 27% for Romney soon they have to show that.
They have a wider -- that they're looking to embrace.
Issues like this to expand that -- -- and at the same time it's good for the economy.
And it's terrible for the economy to.
Have eleven million.
It immigrants that have no.
Clue as to what the half.
To citizenship does -- you're.
Well what we're seeing now I think is the emergence of the house is the absolute key players because we've got something in -- going on in the senate.
In the Judiciary Committee Senate Judiciary Committee is eighteen members ten Democrats eight Republicans.
Two of those eight Republicans are also in the gang of eight Jeff fully implement -- so they're currently going through hundreds.
Proposed amendments to this bill.
And what is happening is the gang -- -- -- meeting before each session deciding which amendments that would agree to not agreed to.
And we've had a lot of votes of twelve to six that is all ten Democrats unanimously.
Plus -- and Graham that two Republicans.
Making -- twelve against the other six Republicans and the message of that is we have votes it's going to get through committee.
And also I mean there are 55 Democrats in the senate and there's four Republican members of the house of the gang of eight that's -- right there you got a sixty.
To overcome a filibuster it's possible depending on where some of these red state.
Democrats code which all means that the big action is in the house and everything I get from the house Republicans is.
They will not accept -- deal.
That is essentially legalization first and enforcement later which is essentially what the gang of eight bill does if that impasse.
Cannot somehow be fixed.
-- and a half month.
Think sales if there is no border control trigger if there is no bill it -- fail.
You're right that's that's true there's no way.
That you can get conservative whatever the cost data that you've -- whatever the cost here there's no way to get conservatives on board with this unless there is a real -- -- -- This shouldn't be necessary an emphasis on trigger we also need to take account of the facts that you have.
Going from the border because -- of greater security give more resources dedicated to the border and benchmarks have been met with regard to securing the border.
And reducing crime that's.
Arising out of the border so those benchmarks have been made and it's hopefully that can leverage into an immigration bill coming out of the house.
And I would I don't even need for you how does well I don't even need yeah.
I don't know how do I know you -- I bet I would actually was it was following this debate.
To follow Byron because it he's he's bringing in the stuff that nobody else is really brilliant but I want to ask a weird question on this that you -- And it's about we did mention earlier this Heritage Foundation and there's been this controversy here.
And you had.
And a revealing interview with mr.
rich -- who's the guy.
Who has been called by detractors say white supremacist.
Because he wrote a paper before you came heritage about.
Ethnic IQ levels as they relate immigration and -- some stuff that it.
Does tend to make one -- up a little bit.
But the question is this.
Can heritage function.
As both a political action committee.
And -- think tank because this is Charles Murray and others have said think tanks talk about the things that nobody wants to talk about.
But that's not very convenient if you have a political agenda that can be.
-- a fascinating issue Charles -- actually was a mentor.
For David -- Jason rich wind you know sort of oversaw his dissertation on this topic.
Immigrants and I Q and and when rich wind left heritage.
Murray tweet it out said boy thank goodness I worked for the American enterprise institute and other conservative think tank when -- published the bell curve.
Which was in the nineties which are argued.
Questions of race and IQ.
Because he stayed at the American presence that they didn't get him out.
And there have been a number of conservatives who said about the heritage and foundation which is now under the leadership -- newly departed senator.
-- Jim -- who's been in the United States senate for years sometimes rumored as a possible presidential candidates sometimes that this was this the -- handling have all the earmarks of a political.
A decision that's what happened officeholder does -- find out that your chief of staff for somebody in her office has said something unacceptable.
And media firestorm occurs he's gone.
That's what happened in this case and it seemed to some critics that -- was operating more like political office and I think that.
The folks -- -- we're so sorry to hear about that gentlemen we are not adults -- that you were here.
Program under the I think -- -- -- get -- heard from Charles today I just did it so that you could hear the end of that answer because I thought it was important please take your complaints out at sea -- On Twitter and I would offer my man call list but I had no medical about this because it's just good news on the outlook Jonathan Hunt.
Is up next and I'll see you tomorrow.
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