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Welcome to -- country and -- Mack -- That was officially begun and summer's edition of the time of people heading to beaches and forget about anything that happens outside the water's edge.
This summer shaping -- to be quite different between the Ben Ghazi hearings and the increased scandals of the Obama administration.
The civil war in Syria Chinese are hacking absolutely every computer in North America this could be a very different server.
As -- joining me to start the show is Michael Paulson from the American Enterprise Institute in Washington DC and Michael -- Clinton some things about China.
And -- what the Chinese -- rupture in the last week we have seen that the Chinese say they're packed into that most -- Really most -- classified.
A weapon systems the United States has stealing trillions of dollars.
Information technology are also potentially endangering the security of United States Chinese -- and why's it taken so long for -- to figure this out.
AT team well look you know the -- is -- is been going on for decades right I mean back in the ninety's you have the Cox Commission.
In congress that looked at how the Chinese were stealing ballistic missile technology and then all of a sudden he had Chinese nuclear ballistic missiles that could reach the US.
They did it in the ninety's.
Through through the ninety's through the two thousands.
When they compromised as we call it now compromising not stealing when they compromise the F 22.
And the F 35 that was done under George W Bush's watch.
And now the Obama administration.
Has found out that -- just about everything.
Of significance if you've seen that list everything of significance is being hacked by the Chinese so.
Well we have to understand is that this is a long term very long term.
Dedicated directed assault against America's secrets and our military capabilities and until we do that it's just gonna keep happening.
Okay my I was in China two weeks ago and I had dinner with the vice foreign minister.
And I -- about that -- all these accusations that the Chinese are hacking into the most sensitive security systems -- the United States national security weapons systems.
She decides he's -- China's being hacked into -- -- weren't really sure where all these attacks are coming from what we need is an international solution.
Has anybody tried an international solution and what happens.
Guy yeah well that's the new Chinese line right -- were be were victims too so don't don't feel too bad.
It would there is there has been no international solution but there's been no unilateral solution either you know we have simply.
Sat there and accepted this for years if not decades.
We we've never sanctioned Chinese companies we've never sanctioned Chinese individuals would never caught off cut off any type of communications with the Chinese.
We've never registered our displeasure so you know let let's let's.
These little bit truthful here if I -- the Chinese.
I would just think it's find what I'm doing the American certainly don't seem to care they haven't done anything against us so let's keep on going so.
The idea that that we suddenly -- getting serious about it is completely belied by by the reality of of what this administration or other administrations have done.
As for the Chinese you know wanting an international solution is pretty funny because they don't want an international solution.
For all of the territorial disputes that they have -- this very amorphous very mysterious hacking.
Suddenly they want an international solution which they'd probably like to go through the UN so it'll take three or four decades to figure out that.
No one's -- no one's responsible.
A -- Michael the Chinese leader of the new Chinese later shooting paying -- meeting President Obama next month in California.
Cyber hacking is going to be one of the topics on the agenda what should the United States do to get -- China's attention.
Well first of all I think that cyber hacking should be the number one topic on the agenda every time we meet the Chinese from now on.
They should be the top -- agenda item as you said.
They have stolen trillions -- at least hundreds of billions of dollars -- -- gigabytes and gigabytes.
Of American knowledge American know how you know was really the loser here the American taxpayer the American taxpayer has underwritten the Chinese military modernization because we've done nothing.
To protect our secrets -- should be number one on all of our meetings with the Chinese from now on.
We -- start sanctioning companies that we can figure out our are the ones involved in this or benefiting from illegal obtaining illegally.
Trade secrets and the like we should sanctioned individuals.
We need to stop talking with the Chinese so much what why are we talking with them so much what is it actually get us I know what the diplomats say.
You gotta keep talking and engaging and so -- so forth.
Well guess what it's been decades and the Chinese haven't changed their behavior.
I don't think Obama should meet she what's the point of meeting -- what they said last week when none of this week actually when Donald wasn't.
Was in China they said they yet -- we're at a critical juncture -- what we should be at a critical juncture and they also said they want a new type of great power relationship.
Apparently that's a relationship where they steal from us and we do nothing about it.
It's time to stop talking with the Chinese so much talk when we need to when there's a real.
Issue or crisis or agenda.
But don't just make them feel that everything's fine -- and they can get away with this this is that it you know it's the economic crime of the century and it may be the national security crime of the century.
One final question when I was in China one thing that struck me is that there's just such mass censorship.
-- bear out exposure for the average Chinese exposure to the international world to world wide web to the Internet.
Could we bring down the great firewall of China as our ace in the hole.
It's it's it it's possible I mean do.
Part of that part of the problem is is that the well for so the Chinese themselves don't have great hold over.
A lot of that that the smaller parts -- like micro blogging is an area they're really worried about it and even though they'll shut down one side another cycle pop up 41 server and another server.
We could seek to exploit that.
Bringing down the entire the entire net breaking through there they're censorship.
-- -- truth is I don't I don't know if that's something we focus on I don't know we have those capabilities because we.
We haven't made cyber.
-- to -- -- a central part of of our policy yet.
I think we should threaten them with and I think we should be exploring how to do it we certainly.
When we know we should be sending viruses back through the nodes that have been probing and attacking us after that.
I think that you you getting to -- political level that you want to make sure.
That what you're doing won't make things worse but we certainly don't have to sit quietly and be robbed blind.
OK well thank you very much Michael -- -- of the American Enterprise Institute thanks so much for making time for us today thanks -- thank you.
Now my turn to the ever increasing and Gaza -- -- the one guy who's been on this from the very beginning and who has been insistent.
That this is a real problem it's a scandal and it's a scandal from the beginning.
Middle and and then it.
Is Andrew McCarthy so we're really thrilled that you have time for us today thank you you've been writing up a storm between.
The grand Jihad willful blindness -- -- spring fever were you continually.
Bring up a topic that five years ago people thought you were crazy and now it looks like -- You're absolutely right on everything you've talked about to Timmy because you're also a lawyer and you also were prosecuting attorney.
-- in the first.
Twin Towers attack.
For the blind Sheikh where are we now with the subpoenas that their house oversight committee just sent to the State Department asking for more information and dance well with.
-- could -- in Stonewall mode and I didn't I'm afraid that will stay there because what we have is a situation where you have four different.
Committees brown and and the internal State Department investigating itself so you have nobody really steering the ship.
And remember KT back in the days before 9/11 the big problem once information.
Sharing right -- you had these organizations that were supposed to share information bit but didn't.
You have -- the opposite problem you have these cavalcade of committees that don't structurally cooperate with each other.
Not really been organized in any way in terms of what there investigating so the fact that they don't get to the bottom of it shouldn't surprise that -- -- -- Britons -- say special prosecutor is something that I did well but that doesn't mean a select committee wouldn't be a good idea that's special prosecutors a bad idea.
All the power in the executive branch is riposte to the president.
Prosecution is a it is really -- paragon executive power to you can't have.
A prosecutor who operates Adams president Obama's chain of command and really.
Adam poll -- exchange -- -- command I can investigate how can -- investigate all right so you can't really do that without creating this unaccountable fourth for branch of government that our system shouldn't abide.
But that doesn't mean congress can't do its work and the reason we know what we know to this point is because congress actually has done its job and because public attention has driven it.
-- we're seeing yet again also that you know when the media decides to be curious all the sudden.
-- starts ultimate.
Thing I've been really struck with when I was in the White House during Watergate I was also in the Pentagon during the Iran -- have -- to scandal.
The lawyers drive a lot of this so if for example the people have been subpoenaed to thirteen people from -- have been subpoenaed that.
State -- people who have been subpoenaed they don't go her own lawyers yet and they all do in those -- cost a thousand dollars an hour and they're paying for bad out of their own pocket.
So is there kind of -- -- -- now that that this speeds up that all these people who have to pay their own bills themselves.
Then turn out to say well I'd I'd want immunity I'll name a guy ahead of me but I'm tired you know don't come after me yeah is that what announcement.
And I wish that were the case that are historic experience with us this that these independent counsel investigations and these congressional investigations going for a very long time.
And I thank them -- the legal fees or big problem.
And there -- reason why we shouldn't tolerate frivolous investigations because innocent people get forced to retain counsel and the like.
But -- you know in the past these have not moved quickly.
You're -- looks at the big picture.
What what's the most important thing with the -- has anything for you was at the talking point says that the night of the attack it's what didn't happen after the attack that in order I would say.
Four Americans including our ambassador who is the representative of the United States in country were killed.
And it looks like.
Sufficient action was not taken to protect them on the circumstances were couldn't -- could have been this is not one of those situations where the coverup is worse in the prime.
It this is one of these situations where what happened here is atrocious and we should be trying to get to the bottom of it and that's the most important thing.
The talking points are evidence.
That's something really bad happened and somebody doesn't want you get to the bottom of it and you know that they should be looked at I think in in that regard.
The other thing I'm I've been sort of a lonely voice on I think is.
I don't know why we had a facility.
And -- Gaza in the first place the United States should never have a facility.
In a place that we can't protect.
We had a place in we had a facility in a place which is as dangerous as it gets for Americans on the planet.
And we contented ourselves to contract out the security of those Americans -- working there and somebody needs to explain.
What do you think they were doing and then gas and we still haven't gotten the answer -- that this was not this is not a consulate where they were giving visas out.
And stamping passports there's something else was going on what -- -- -- gone well I you know I don't I don't want to accuse them I don't wanna get out in front of what the facts that we -- -- -- there's -- talk about -- -- was -- -- involved with -- some network of support for the rebels in Syria.
Sort of based on what we did for the quote -- quote rebels in -- in Ben -- and in Libya.
I don't know if that's the case I think that's when the things that we have to -- on it seems also that.
The political presence was important.
In other words we were who we were just a few months -- actually few weeks outside of the 2012.
-- President Obama was running on.
Basically the representations that al-Qaeda was essentially decimated and and on the -- And that's the way he handled Libya was fabulously successful for going forward to -- democracy in American national security.
I think having a presence in Ben -- Among the people who were in the leadership of of the rebels.
Who -- argued all along were tied to al-Qaeda and other Islamic supremacist groups.
Was a way to signal to the region and to the American people that the president's policy had been successful.
And that -- the region was as much of the masses lunatics like.
-- said it was.
You know wouldn't we wouldn't have a facility -- so I think the political presence was what's the big deal.
You think the administration knew what it was.
Knowing when it went into the the Libyan.
Good war could help -- win the Libyan war on behalf of the rebels without really and -- it turns out that the rebels in fact or not.
You know secular Democrats who want to have a wonderful democracy and be just like us that in fact that their.
First of -- -- less than a lot of the rebel groups now seem to be very closely tied.
With terrorists like.
Think if you listen to the president's speech last week on national security.
It's clear that they have an ideological band that they're not open to the possibility that they may be wrong about what the -- What the ideology of our enemies as.
They they're actually tied into this thing it seems unbending -- tied into this thing that tells them that.
The enemy is reacting to American policy and if we can convince them that where.
Where nicer people when make better policies that they won't be as angry as they are and in point of fact the enemies ideology.
Is a mainstream interpretation of Islam it's not the only interpretation of Islam but it's the one that's dynamic in this region.
And they understand themselves to be under a divine injunction to make war against non Muslims that's a fact and it's just the fact that we have to deal with and it it's really not affected by.
We displayed of them that -- not at war with them that's that's irrelevant to them except in terms of how hard it'll be to win.
And then how -- that relate to what's happening in Europe where we saw a British soldier hacked to death by some.
-- becomes our bloody hands on the butcher's knife saying we're making war on all of you mean is that that kind of -- the fact well look KT could -- And since I got involved in this in 1993 the government's been saying the same thing over and over again which is that the ideology that drives the threat.
Has nothing to do with Islam.
And is not very pervasive.
That basically we're dealing with fringe collection of smiling -- extremists and we call them violent extremists because we don't want to deal with what the ideological components.
What I've been arguing all along and I think what people starting to see in -- it's not that I'm a genius I was just in the courtroom with these guys and -- I know what they say and I know what they think and I understood that.
The blind -- Had the authority to control an organization despite the fact that he physically could not do anything that would be helpful to a terrorist organization.
Because he was a renowned master of the ideology he's a doctor I'm -- -- jurisprudence graduated from.
-- is our university that was his the source of his authority.
This is a widespread.
And it has a strategy for spreading out not only in Europe but throughout the west and in the United States and its.
We've we've called it voluntary apart tied the idea that they move into these.
Muslim on -- -- try to persuade the host government that they should be able to govern themselves on the show real law.
Become more numerous and more provocative over time and then when they feel confident enough what you see is these kind of forcible -- and.
Let me switch to.
Gears to Syria.
We've now seen the United Nations this afternoon condemn the violence in Syria and they -- Hezbollah.
Senator McCain was just in Syria this past weekend saying it's time to arm the rebels.
The Obama administration appears to be drawing up plans to create a no fly zone over Syria.
The Europeans the brits and the French are announcer -- arm the rebels.
What should we do about -- I think it's a mistake I think we should continue to sit by and let them.
Beat each other's brains and I you know the reports I sort today also where that.
Hezbollah's casualties are way up I mean you have a situation where we have.
Hamas -- off against Hezbollah the al-Qaeda elements set off against the Iranians it's.
It if somebody -- dreamed up a way to do this that we would have been something we would we would have jumped on and when I'm concerned about particularly with respect Senator McCain.
Is this is precisely what he did in Libya.
Which is how we got ourselves involved in that mess and I just see us.
-- repeating history and -- that the less history didn't turn out so well.
Now mile plus Henry Kissinger -- -- about the Iran Iraq war in the 1980s is is one war where you -- they both lose sure do.
OK well thank you very much Andrew McCarthy author of willful blindness the grand Jihad and aspirin favor thanks -- thanks for taking the time my pleasure.
I just read a couple comments that we've gotten about the Chinese the hacking situation.
One of our guests some simple to says our country is screwed we tell someone -- is stole billions.
And critical technologies from us and they -- chartered off and then -- do nothing that's a problem we can't fix that once we just can't change and tell them to stop.
A -- Le -- says we need that -- have put dummy files are income computers.
A high tech that will scare them things that we would never -- -- could -- like a mock ten new capable light bomber.
Sounds like Star Wars to -- we're gonna take a break and then come back and talk about the situation.
I welcome back to Defcon three -- for those of you want to join in the conversation please send.
Any comments or questions that you got sent -- immediately.
To -- -- KT has brought on Twitter or to the live chat below.
And I will ask some of our next guest deadbeat parents seeing Ross of the foundation for -- defense of democracies the man who is probably -- American.
Terrorists for longer and harder than just about anybody I -- and -- has a new book called bin Laden's legacy while we're still losing the war on terror.
They don't ask you about Europe.
What is going on when we have a British subject who is it in London in broad daylight.
Take some meat cleaver in the hacks a British soldier to death in front of hundreds of -- bystanders is this the new wave of terror.
Well the first of all it's -- at the bystanders -- as you mentioned they were simply standing there are a lot of them had their cameras out there were filming -- this is really.
Disgusting to be utterly frank about it.
Now to be fair some of the bystanders are probably shocked they were horrified.
There were a couple of arm band that you had this enormous crowd there are a lot of things they -- done.
It attracted to solar -- these two guys they -- thrown things at them they can get distracted them that's highly problematic in and of itself.
As to looking at the situation in Europe.
In Britain you've had.
Over the past decade.
A large number of terrorist plots fortunately.
The vast vast majority of them have been stopped but at the and I it's -- the MSI director that is at Britain's.
Internal security agency.
I gave this rather remarkable speech as several years ago in which she said that.
At any given time you'll have about thirty different ongoing terrorist plots in Britain.
What that it's actually probably helped the British in terms of the scale of of plots that they face.
Is that a lot of the plots are large scale people wanting to attack multiple nightclubs or used car bombs and the like.
Now what happened here this -- broad daylight attack.
Very difficult to stop.
And it's also far less damage that some of the plots that we've seen.
Like plots about multiple air airplanes using liquid explosives.
But it's very difficult to stop.
-- -- -- -- If this is if these are long -- -- difficult to stop when he knew about the fact that there's posthumous Fort Hood there's now londoners Paris demonstrations.
Do we just sit by and wait for this stuff to happen to me.
But no I mean sitting by and waiting for things to happen is is clearly not acceptable option.
The British have been have been extremely.
As vigilant about tackling their problem -- -- made a great deal of arrests over the course of the past decade.
As as you well know.
It's difficult to prevent.
You every single attack and if you go back to 2005 when the F 77 attacks occurred in London.
-- -- mass transit.
If -- said there wouldn't be another successful attack it -- 2013.
That would be excellent news and I think it's a bit disturbing it is twofold.
One as we've seen a couple of of copycat attacks seemingly.
One of them in France where a soldier was stabbed in the neck -- individual who perpetrate that attack was just captured.
Early twenties -- -- convert.
You also had and attacked at a British prison over the weekend it hasn't gotten -- a lot of press but British officials believe that this attack.
And what of the -- the prison.
Was also inspired.
By this attack on the streets of London.
So -- makes a speech saying the war on terror and in effect last week at the national defense university in effect -- The Warren terrors over we won -- Ben Laden's dad al-Qaeda core is finished.
Are you by and that.
No but -- the reasons that I disagree with his assessment of the threat environment RR a bit different than what we've seen it over the the past few days in Britain France.
Mean -- -- -- very small scale attacks if that's what we have to worry about and that's the extent of it.
Then actually I think Obama's not -- if that's all we have.
Then the war on terror can be declared over but looked down and Africa and you just had.
A large scale attack against French interest to me share carried out by an individual they booked about about -- someone who was once part of al-Qaeda Islamic Maghreb.
Started his own splinter group but it proclaims allegiance are -- senior leadership.
You also have another phenomenon that's going on particularly -- post transition states states like Egypt Tunisia and Libya.
In which groups that once were banned under the old regimes those who share up that is ideology are now enjoying the greater freedoms that you have within those societies -- -- just gotten Tunisia last month -- -- research out there.
-- their group caught on structuring it Tunisia.
It's a group that shares -- cut -- ideology very openly.
And what -- that they realize that they have unprecedented opportunities to undertake power which is.
Arabic for missionary work.
They're not proselytizing to not most of -- rather they're trying to win other Muslims over to their cause may have.
Enough resources at their disposal to also provide social services.
The kind of things that can bolster their image and they're very very sappy about immediately posted their gala events or social service convoys.
On to FaceBook which magnifies the profile.
What's going on in -- -- the broader Syrians.
Complex where that we now seem to have a thousand rebel group some of them are.
Our -- are at Al Sharia that are are closely tied to I'm Sunni extremist radical groups others are closely tied -- as well off.
And Shiite groups is this is -- something that we think is gonna spill out into the entire region.
Yet -- was -- first I would point out though is -- start up talking about Europe and what the situation is like in Europe.
I just got back from and spending two months living in the Netherlands where I was.
On a fellowship at the international center for counterterrorism.
At The Hague.
And the biggest issue -- far with respect to counterterrorism and I was there.
Was that are reported come out from Dutch authorities that a hundred Dutch Muslims had gone over to Syria to -- that conflict.
It's a big concern when they come back -- Like the United States in which often it will prosecute people who go abroad to fight either for -- -- support to a terrorist group if they're joining a terrorist group.
Or else for violations at the neutrality act you don't have the same sort of legal regime in Europe.
And Alison went to Belgium and you have similar figures in Belgium entrance of the number of people who went to Syria to fact.
This is a big problem that that Europe is going to be facing you're going to have a lot of returnees which is also going to change some of the dynamics on the ground in Europe.
As to the situation in Syria yes that.
You when you look at at the future of Syria.
You think -- of the worst thing you could imagine and it's probably going to be ten times worse than that -- didn't do this situation on the ground is horrible now.
-- you've had somewhere between 80000 people killed.
In this conflict to perhaps over a 100000.
You can a chemical weapons use would be the least of our concerns entrance -- large amount of people have been slaughtered in this conflict you have multiple groups fighting.
And it's it's a situation -- used to say it's dangerous would be had a dramatic understatement.
I'm to -- had one last question now from one of our viewers has written in JD the -- says.
It seems that a lot of these plots are being launched from Indonesia and East Africa is that the new nexus points.
-- look at plots that have gone into Europe I wouldn't describe Indonesia is being a big part of that.
You've had a number of different jihadist plots that -- emanated from Indonesia but.
Most of that has been active signed to southeast Asia when you look at East Africa -- particularly if you look at the Horn of Africa.
That's a place which we have seen.
As an access point not so much for international -- although.
What -- the individuals.
Who took part in the -- of the British soldier had gone to Kenya his arrest by Kenyan authorities allegedly for trying to enter Somalia to join.
Description Bob there.
So often you have is a great deal of nexus between one reached in another.
You're not only do they -- increasingly globalized world where it's easy for one person from certain region to travel to another country or receive training and a third country.
But -- say you have you a jihadist movement.
Which has a strong -- rational identity.
Right and then doesn't know national borders well I think that.
Even though we have entered the summer months and a lot of people think about going to the beach and -- vacation doesn't sound to me like.
Islamic extremists terrorists and guys who want to do bad things are on vacation at all hey thanks a lot for joining us.
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