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He got NSA surveillance program a key facts can not be lost in all of this at the program itself is not new there is the program.
And then there's a -- court that allows its surveillance and that secret court started in 1978.
We have this chart for you that shows over the years some of these requests for surveillance and how they've gone that you can see that the denials which is is that flat line and the bottom there.
Have stayed -- relatively well in fact almost nonexistent.
Our next guest is -- about these surveillance -- extensively over the last decade embraced as a very crucial perspective not only as a constitutional attorney.
But as a former federal prosecutor one of the most dangerous terrorists and history the blind -- tied to their first World Trade Center attack and you McCarthy joins us now.
For his perspective and all -- the -- -- to have you studio with that's nice to be here so let's start first because again there's the program.
And there's the court that enables the program and in some ways are separate right talk to us about where where this is now vs where -- 1015 years ago.
Well really where it is now is it's it's controversial because they're suddenly so much attention to it that -- I don't I don't really think that we're doing anything that's any different from what we've been doing since the early days after.
The 9/11 attacks when as you as you point out a lot of the requests to do this kind of surveillance spiked.
So why -- people seem to have such a prominent.
Well I think.
What's now happened in the last week or so is.
What's it basically the the obvious -- become explicit what what we always knew was going on has now been confirmed.
And it's an opportunity for people who have been uncomfortable with a for a long time to re litigate it.
You know and we with talk a little bit about the president's speech on terrorism.
Few weeks ago and one of the things he said is that the war on terror is essentially over -- Does that change things because you look back ten years ago we were.
At at a very crucial point in the war on terror because the 9/11 -- attacks -- happened to him but if we're declaring it over how does that change that.
It changes it enormously I think there's two things actually going on one thing is.
The American people tolerated.
The Patriot Act.
And tolerate a lot of surveillance even surveillance that -- go on inside our country because it's -- time.
That was really the reason -- people bought on to these programs if it's not wartime anymore that's a pretty good case for rolling this kind of stuff back.
And the way that you you beat back the impulse to roll it back is for the other side the what I always -- the national security right.
To make the case that they were at war and B it's important that presidential power be robust and more time.
But if if the national security right which is primarily Republican.
Is not willing to make the same case for presidential power during the Obama administration as it was during the Bush Administration.
-- the case for doing these programs really suffers -- The politics involved is it an issue let's go a little bit bigger than the policies because one of the things that.
That this week has presented to our viewers is that the feeling that everyone assent -- a target.
They've ever as a target and knowing can be a target and we do you know with a target is when it comes to terrorism we do know this militant Islam.
So how -- that figuring into the conversation where everywhere he feels vulnerable but yet.
They're the real focus may not be.
Out Franklin center as some may argue it should be.
Yeah the problem is with the word target.
Because everybody does feel targeted.
And because I don't think the government's done an effective job of of trying to show people the difference between being surveil and having information collected.
What's really going on with the meta data what's been called you know this this.
The data information about your phone calls but not the content.
Instead of sitting in a vault or -- on a server at some phone company it's now sitting in a in a government server.
But they are not allowed to look at it they're not allowed to sift through it.
Unless they have particular -- suspicion about -- they have to go to the court.
To get permission for that.
You are you confident in that process that that that we can because we don't know the process well look I'm confident that historically it has worked well.
I'm confident that structurally it should work well because -- -- layers of judicial and congressional oversight.
But I understand when you have things like the IRS scandal going on.
Where people think that the bureaucracy is being abused by the executive branch where they would across the board stop having trust the executive.
And -- -- a final question here you you came face to face summit in our history that is really dramatically shifted in the history in America when it comes to terrorism.
And one of the argument that has been made over the past week is that in some cases this is -- way to terrorists have won because -- Created -- states where were open to more surveillance because.
This fear of terrorists and is this permanent is it's just the way it will be from from now on that that were going to accept this because of the fear and -- these particular groups it's.
Permanent within ideological threat if -- society that's fearful of talking about the ideology are -- Yeah I mean I -- -- -- so schedule ever saying a whole week talking all about our own programs.
Overnight and spending a whole -- talking about are -- -- what I would call the threat kinetic Islam which is which is radical jihadist militant jihadist.
Who are really fortified by a Islamic supremacists may not be terrorists themselves but are supportive of the agenda.
Their ideology is rooted in a literal interpretation of the Koran.
It's not the only way to interpret Islam but it's a mainstream interpretation we don't want to deal with that because we basically vilify people who pointed that out.
And if you don't deal with the ideology.
That's fueling the threat.
Then you can't deal with the threat you have to do with the way we've been doing it and if that's how we do it it is for.
We come back to tax us more about that can be to wanted to do it let's do that and it's good to have you thank you so much expertise today.
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