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-- Welcome to the fox -- I'm your host James Rosen broadcasting from the Washington bureau Fox News here in the nation's capital.
-- we haven't seen you for -- -- -- -- have you back here in the foxhole with us.
Got -- busy day we've got the NSA had testifying on the hill.
And of course the president's overseas meeting with foreign leaders on Syria and other subjects as part of the G-8.
And we have -- -- very special guest this is sort of like popular twittered to man that this is happening.
One of the smartest men I know that I've ever met Jonah Goldberg.
The editor in chief of national review online.
-- now editor at large it was the editor of the founding editor -- lines -- who's the editor in chief.
Rich Rich Lowry praise be upon.
And we want to just make mention of the two very well received and best selling books that children has often the first two miracles liberal fascism.
Tell us what liberal fascism was about being in summer short it was essentially.
But he want go to revisionist history and it was this argument that basically said.
That fascism that -- to -- want fascism objectively defined in this money as they did was define terms -- -- a lot of critics crazy.
Was as we understand terms was a phenomenal the last.
That -- many of the people were constantly finding fascism on the right actually -- deeper and stronger intellectual roots.
In the same intellectual currents that -- created fascism that the American progressives -- were huge fans of America Italian fascism.
And deep admiration for it.
And that many in that that many people who work constantly scanning the horizon.
Right word for fascism might actually -- -- look over her shoulders and yours follow up to that very successful book was called the tyranny of cliches.
And what was this book.
It was -- about aptly titled books I'll I'll.
I'm glad as as some people -- me -- -- program and I'm.
It was a much lighter book it was an easy it was much easier read much less than fifty pages but it's.
And it was the basic argument that -- it all together was this idea that.
The way that the left hives.
So much of its ideological agenda -- by denying it has an optical.
You hear this from brought Obama down that they're just -- fact -- members of the reality based community.
And that they you know as is Mike Bloomberg -- you know don't label me.
I don't believe in labels.
Man in reality so many of these.
It's of these claims are actually ways to.
Sort of hide in the Trojan horse an actual sincere ideological agenda and we're going to try to do as a conservative is -- -- The validity of legitimacy of having to deal -- nothing wrong with happening ideology.
On ideology is is it it is.
A coherent set of values and principles that you applied in new facts.
In new data in in the creation of a program governing programs.
Or or just in -- way of sort of organizing your priorities if you have no -- -- and show.
Indeed and -- as as Erik -- community dean to point out.
If you look up and European dictionaries Felton is wrong which means -- German world view worldview.
And ideology of their basically the exact same -- in America -- -- to somebody.
Oh he's got a great world view in this -- but he's always got a lot of history and ideology -- -- scary.
And the really the same thing and that's alternative and -- don't make me quite a few more.
Jokes process and dollars dollars yes yes and I'm not -- -- dollars and I mentioned that this.
Program today is sort of by popular demand there a few folks on Twitter.
-- -- constantly emailing or tweeting I should say that that Joan and I should have our own show together on Fox News so to those Twitter followers of us both to quote Neil Young.
This notes for you.
I should also point out as as frequent visitors to the -- know that if you go just below me on your screen.
On your computer screen you can use your FaceBook or Twitter accounts to send questions in your -- chat for me or preferably for -- So we see this testimony on the hill today from -- tenant general Alexander Keith Alexander the National Security Agency.
The National Security Agency revelations about the metadata that there collecting follow certain other public controversies.
On -- and kind of split the the kind of unity that we saw in the earlier controversies about the this news organization.
And expeditiously to watch people like more -- and and other people.
Basically hold the line on the NSA program.
Rather than succumb to some.
Popular outrage over Big Brother right that's your observations well.
Yet -- and mark I should say is a colleague of mine at the American Enterprise Institute.
I am I I think he makes a very strong case I think Dick Cheney makes a very strong case on the merits but the NSA program.
At the same time one the reasons why I think Dick Cheney.
Will and as forcefully as.
Is one because president Obama's just simply a new rule issue I do think it's an application of its responsibilities.
And and probably.
The result of calculated decision for absolutely I think that.
One of the from from mine shot and -- it rich prospective lot of German word yeah.
I don't know it's verboten yeah.
From my shot and for a test that position and sudden throw it is the German term that means the delight some people taking others' misery just for the record my actual favorite German words -- -- Which is envy of someone else's.
-- I'm I'm attendance.
But that it that it I anyway.
That made it.
With the exception of been -- all of the scandals and controversies this Omar necessary -- there just controversies about controversial policies.
And I don't think anyone to date known as is credibly alleged serious criminal wrongdoing and say.
In the -- story -- justice -- critical to this that the other thing but we don't know yet that it's actually anything in fact it's functional law that was created right.
-- And so but all of these controversies.
-- are just incredibly deadly to Barack Obama's own base right now as -- there is whenever.
He has to get crosswise with this image that he's cultivated themselves.
He sort of retreats from the public scene.
Resumes he's on this last night was pretty -- report com.
And I think that.
In the IRS scandal even if it's.
It's if it's unfair to apply it to the and it's a scandal it creates this climate of distrust it creates this climate the sense that.
President Obama has been willing to politicize everything in many ways -- -- -- is that would become radioactive form.
I I am not.
All the way with mark he's in on some of the stuff in the sense that the extent that I think.
Some concern is is ballot and we simply don't know what's happening I think that.
I think that Edwards noted is proving himself to be less and less reliable character does things first you.
Sort of countervailing questions in this controversy raises some hours follows one how can the people.
A proof of a program when it's never disclosed to right.
By the same token.
What Smart terrorist well developed and therefore.
Seriously threatening terrorist organization.
Would doubt that this days doing this so where's the where's the national security damage that would keep being told -- ultimately actions.
Right answer in the Jason Bourne Moody's.
Reducing black -- and to a phone calls -- You know squad Ninja's parties -- fan I wish we had that capability to the negatives and I have Brothers -- -- way you know it.
-- -- -- -- In 1974 after Nixon resigned important solid person and the New York Times.
Published this famous front page -- this thing December.
To set for alleging twenty years of domestic -- -- -- Dissident student.
Groups that work groups.
Completion of the domestic chores that the domestic the prohibitions against us on this chart and there was and in massive.
Public response in the form the creation oversight committees -- still with us today -- -- -- -- Self -- -- -- against the intelligence community for twenty plus years.
And then you contrast that with the public response to James writes in the New York Times disclosed exactly -- That the bush administration's conduct warrantless wiretaps.
Against some Americans have been such errors -- was -- -- outside the beltway types bright and the great intervening event between those two disclosures is eleven.
And -- in the seventies I think the the the and where you are Americans would have been big brother's watching.
When you have in the case on eleven and FBI agent in the media.
-- it seem dated and the system to -- Al-Qaeda is training people come over here and take flight lessons would take off and land and Big Brother fails the system fails to connect those dots.
Today the worry among some circumstances for all the money we -- to big Brothers -- is Big Brother competent right less than his Big Brother watching you see that same dichotomy.
Work or pork and DC that playing out in the NSA revelers.
I do if this is a -- -- I.
And I think the one of these you hear a lot and my -- -- -- more is the degree to which political correctness poisons all this right and -- who has been saying for a very long time that.
The TSA gets out of seeming like it's discriminating against Muslims is.
If they can just shake down a few more 85 year old Norwegian grandmothers it'll even now the numbers right and -- of that somehow justice.
And one of the things that we have is we have -- system now that -- the cast and if -- cast -- -- over everybody.
Then you don't have to signal out.
I think that's where one of the and aversion to profiling short.
You know if you can digitize the entire country you don't have to analyze any specific individual.
And I I think that is an approach that should give.
Some of -- problems.
You know tightens control.
When you're searching text document in the were you looking -- and instantly pops up.
I kind of have gotten so used to that -- that in life when I can't find my car keys I want to just -- search went like this.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- me -- -- -- James Rosen was still broadcasting live from.
The Washington bureau Fox News here in the nation's capital you can still use your Twitter or FaceBook account.
To -- just below me on your screen to send me your -- And also your questions for our guests here in the fox hole today to local burger that true -- -- Look.
You're really bright guy you're really Smart keeps -- intimidated into Iraq and frankly it's it's it's it's -- fatiguing it sure to be around because you're so Smart.
I'm always are -- and indeed -- When you give you rides home occasion for work -- we -- -- each -- in the green room always afraid that my ignorance is going to be exposed.
This is these are true facts there in fact.
Not and possible.
Do you speak a foreign language I do not.
All right that level level the playing field has been leveled -- here and prove -- -- but now.
-- that was disqualified.
If you were to have to truly.
And it's probably -- have either been passed before but you were asked to describe the education Jonah Goldberg I guess we can begin with the basics of where he went to school.
But how would you describe your education as an intellectual -- -- you don't you don't shrink from the term election.
-- Only -- -- only speaks and it seems like I'm putting on airs which -- -- part of my whole shtick is to take ideas seriously but not much ulcers and Tom.
-- all the columns written about women's prison movies but.
That it com.
And I had a very strange education.
I went to the first reformed Jewish day school in the country.
Was where parents in the 1970s and their kids to be raised Jewish and two Jewish where was that British -- -- school that was side of Manhattan back on the upper senate upper west side of Manhattan.
-- dangerous place to live.
And -- I was a bit of us grew up in high school I was rejected every college applied to.
-- -- Very good grades are very bad -- soon we did you eventually political especially went to a conflict after college and ultimately.
-- his -- -- Johns Hopkins.
My freshman year was a prisoner -- -- -- Bombs on basically the Rosa Parks of gender integration.
And you must have got to -- those that tells them record it takes traders would have because I want to Johns Hopkins probably runs into it we we hated your kind and I've been a real education came from my dad my dad was a -- it was a true intellectual.
Hand his is hobbies were fairly limited -- -- to.
Moves his nickname -- -- -- media executive and an editor.
He ran away from on the -- -- -- was in the Bronx did in the 1940s.
Which was he graduated high school news 1415 years old.
And his idea hobbies were either moving from one side of the -- to the other to read different magazine.
We're going to European.
Museums war going on very long walks with his sons and explaining to them the roots.
Of the Ottoman Empire pan veteran or why communism was very very this explains a lot actually -- now Canada and I was -- -- -- about how I was explaining something about the Serbian black hand which was the first terrorist organization.
In modern times end.
Went deep into the weeds on this if you want to extend my -- imagine.
This exact same discussion coming from an -- -- Jewish guy as he pushed small child swing because that's what I -- -- -- that's a very healthy bland.
Do you have siblings I have I have one brother -- And are you working on a book right now.
Come I'm working on working on the book as as you know.
Writing a book that you want to write this one of the worst experience life working on the book that don't want to write.
Belongs right next to be -- eating demon in the fifth -- hell and -- I'm not.
I -- I'm thinking through some ideas usually I'm -- Which is a German word as well -- -- Is it they're going to be nonfiction you're reasonably short of that.
Oh I would love to do fiction I have some ideas have been.
Contemplating announcing you're going union for very long time about some fiction stuff but.
My -- -- given where I am right now that's right.
-- -- Do you have any really good friends who are sort of kind of like your opposite number on the left.
So now than I used to -- that Peter runner when he was the under the republic we used to be sparring partners all the time obligated bunch of we have web TV show thanks for blogging and -- -- the Republican so debate among college campuses lot.
But we don't have the same relationship we used to to what do you attribute that.
-- I think it's just you know -- work on Israel's in -- We've had no personal falling out when axiom good to see him on stuff but he's moved in one direction professionally have moved to another on -- more broadly speaking.
You know as you know once you get married -- you have kids the -- of people you -- with narrows and I have a hard time making room -- the people aren't really -- are closed.
I was -- -- kind of as a function of our times.
William F Buckley junior founder of the modern conservative American movement in America.
Was famously friendly with John Kenneth Galbraith who had been president Kennedy's -- Indian economist.
And they went skiing every year together and dished out Switzerland.
We're famous friends from opposite kind of -- of the political spectrum and I wonder.
If that happens -- today.
Obviously didn't get married and we want someone supposed to Carville Matalin -- for that sort of thing.
Yeah I'm -- always.
I'm a big fan of I don't but I find those kinds of relationships sort of pot in his living if one person's a dentist another person's actuary or or in kicking candy -- Right there yeah.
But if your whole life is living breathing politics and you think it is incredible in the world -- A manager -- how you have conversations in your daily life when you just -- some phenomenal things just perplexing.
-- -- I think that he.
You have fewer famous.
Bar across trans partisan friendships -- you used to think they're still out there.
But as of broader social audit found -- right that you are seeing -- sort of -- society were people.
Sorting by infinity when it.
We've actually left Buckley a short while ago Jenna Goldberg of course is editor at large of national review on line actually -- having been magazines.
Launched in 1955.
You don't need to be a big.
Bought the old file and you made terrific and devastating fun of that recent piece about.
-- -- -- wouldn't respond to calls and that was probably my favorite he's running awful things that telling my points as well.
Is everybody who works in -- review at least some senior positions yourself which Larry.
Is everyone kind of in fit in -- in varying measure up we will file.
-- -- Speaking yes I don't think.
I've heard anybody.
Of any tenure -- -- -- you ever say anything.
Not based in love mean.
There are lots of things you can criticize anybody that you know closely you know there's a famous line.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- I think was Bismarck says that's because of the nature.
The man not his -- but this markets adjournment were.
Not true that I'm so.
I I -- Everyone loves Buckley and everyone understands where -- I was -- national review generally is that.
There was always this sort of sense of the street to court the institution was bigger than anybody who's actually working forward.
And you know rich you -- lot better than -- Rich Lowry and I was there I was lucky enough to have dinner at his house few times -- and get to know him pretty well.
-- extremely -- -- Is there anybody to like is there anybody today who we who could even -- to the Clinton rule book that it was the rule book -- had unique to -- times because.
Keep in mind he was the first.
Media palatable conservative right and -- huge part of his influence remember back as you know better and I at the time.
You know Wallace George Wallace -- -- and -- to be picture of day.
Or or Bob -- -- and end.
But there was this guy who was policy Alec who could do.
Who could do a feat liberal language games better than any liberals and I think though he was it was a creature of his time on one -- the all the problems of conservatism has to analyze problems.
Problems of success.
You know one of the problems that we have is that conservatives have given up too many users have given up on the importance of persuading people.
Politics asked -- about persuasion as well the times dragons is greater civil war reenactment.
And one of the reasons why Buckley was -- successful as it was was.
That almost any venue he talked to by definition.
He's -- talking to people who disagreed with him and he's trying to persuade and today a lot of conservatives are coming up in the movement.
Who can have their entire careers spent only talking to people who already agree with him that -- -- recipe for group think.
And dysfunction and shrinkage and shrinkage at all ultimately that's that's also a product this is it as a problem you have success -- -- actually have a -- -- -- That you can have.
You know media outlets you can have you know conferences.
Where everyone shows up as a conservative and in the past.
Liberal dominance of the mainstream media was such.
The conservative voices -- onto it had to be a little bit better and had to -- ours were swimming.
Against such time now for a lot of people could just go with the time and that's -- -- -- -- -- On the cover of time magazine in 1967.
They used to David -- caricature of him.
And the caption said William F Buckley junior conservatism can be fun.
And I think one -- -- the keys to success was his humor -- his -- -- and I think that was also key to Ronald Reagan's success.
And I think that might be something that conservatives should.
-- greater attention to today.
I think that's right I mean that's one of the main reasons why when I do public speaking -- try to get as much humor in -- as possible.
In part because.
That the conventional wisdom is still that.
Consumers -- mean.
We need a truckload of -- to crack a smile and in fact George W.
Bush when he ran in 2000 coined that phrase compassionate conservatism which for some carry the connotation that.
Why is this one is the qualifier even necessary right.
Right and -- -- is what -- never liked -- humanity humans different kind did you compassionate you.
Are gonna end so.
If you can and if you get in as well as -- Andrew -- -- who was so unbelievably different from -- but in -- way Andrew's good friend of mine would not shrink from that.
And perhaps some real similarities.
In that their -- institution builders and movement builders and the -- clearly were enjoying the -- they -- provocative tourists.
Yeah right as a Michael Moore is -- left right.
Molina but it was certainly an element you know he was -- intellectual and it was also trying to -- movement writes Michael -- -- Provoking and making movies and money but what what -- what it where I think.
Where bill any Andrews and -- were different than Michael Moore is it that.
They -- happy people I don't know maybe I'm wrong but McLemore seems like -- miserable bastard that.
Buckley and and Andrew were happy with who they -- -- -- happy that they were in -- good fight and so much of the work that went -- did.
Was not -- public wasn't on fire and it wasn't in the pages that was that the young Americans for freedom for or just simply hurting these cats of these very strange intellectual disparate people.
With very unique and hard boiled opinions into a movement and only someone who was as good.
And charming as -- -- Bill Buckley couldn't couldn't manage to pulls people together as the Tea Party.
Or otherwise damaged.
I'm still of the opinion that there and that good.
I'm very -- so I'm certainly sympathetic to their aims and ambitions even your phraseology and -- good.
Presupposes some kind of problems -- it.
Well the problem is -- the -- of that room not one of these problems success conserve movement that is that is -- is that.
When you have this mass populous movement.
In the forms of the tea parties you also get a lot of people running into me to quit and there some of these Tea Party groups recommend specific names and we don't -- -- -- -- And their names Ryan -- And it.
-- there were just doing -- two run mailing lists and I think they're sort of a problem and they need to be presumably that was that was one of the things an interview -- so wonderful that was sort of being in good faith policeman right.
But the actual energy and spirit of his party's very much -- they speak to a lot of Tea Party groups hand.
I think they're a good a net again and a good one -- -- though you get it in the congressional level is.
-- it goes back this persuasion.
The incredible stuff to from Ronald Reagan -- and I you know you know what is two thumbs laws Ronald Reagan this guy.
But at the same time you have the problem of people forgetting the things that -- Ronald Reagan great wasn't he was this rigid principled guy who is a good politician.
And what I would love to see is people being rigid and principled about should teach your goals.
But a lot more flexible and pragmatic about the tactical moves to get there instead almost every movement -- -- the Republican Party has to make right now.
Is judge begins this perfection and purity test about.
As if it was a strategic decision rather tactical.
John Boehner has very little maneuvering room to get anything accomplished because.
He's measured against this this this populist Tea Party standard.
Is -- perfect decision in his own right router -- does move the issue in our direction.
Forward towards a strategic -- it seems like mobilizing.
Has been elevated above yours yet I think that's right and telling people what they want -- -- very quickly about thirty seconds what to do well.
When you went -- it and by which I don't mean like playing with your kids I mean equality means time for -- is what.
Smoking a cigar drinking.
A brown liquor.
And price catching up on some TV show or something is actually relax and that.
-- -- we here at the fossils were happy to -- in the raising your insurance premiums this.
If if it.
Jonah Goldberg editor at large national review online author of liberal fascism -- the tyranny of cliches and -- still to come thank you for visiting so great to -- for a all right.
-- in two weeks thanks for coming.
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