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-- -- times and assured today that com.
We already here -- the NS say we're hard -- her about how we're being surveyed.
By the government but we didn't know at least not I didn't know -- today with a New York Times revealed it.
That the US Postal Service is and -- in fact spying on us.
British and I receive security technology officer of BT manage security.
Briefly join the board of directors of the electronic frontier foundation -- welcome back.
-- -- thanks for you're matches -- times story I had no idea about this but I bet you do it.
You know we weren't sure we know that the NSA has in the past you that you -- on telegram's.
And it's easier now to -- that not opening mail -- just copying fronts and backs.
It is the metadata of phone calls -- to sending mail to to and that technology is there to get copies of everything.
Now what did say well it's -- government anyway when she put a mail a letter in the -- -- it's government property.
So what does this do in terms of adding a -- surveillance if we already know that that piece of mail now belongs of the government once we put in a mailbox.
Well the question is do we believe that the government keeping records of who sent letters to -- you meet me yes.
There there are rules about stealing from the post office and.
And Mandela's government property it is it is certainly legal for them to do this that's not the question question is whether we as a society.
Seemed it's a good idea where that's conducive to liberty whether it's Americans.
And you know it's been done in secret of course so we weren't able to discuss this as a nation.
I don't know that is global mail copper.
And and I've been hearing rumors about it.
First for several years -- they were doing some of it.
And I always assumed that the technology because there's a lot of automatic.
Mail scanning you know automatically -- -- dressed and put that bar code on the bottom to route the mail so it's not so much of the stretched too.
-- copy of everything.
But we just didn't know they did it I don't actually know.
We -- that you're trying to.
Yeah this -- the mail isolation control and tracking program created after the anthrax attacks in late.
2000 once and going -- for for twelve years.
-- on our profile.
Is as is this a matter of a person.
Making notes -- is it all automated.
It'll automated -- that no way to do the volume if you have people involved right mail goes to automatic sorting equipment.
And in that process it's gonna get photographed and then.
It'll be OCR optical character recognition and I did we have that data turns -- towards market reform.
-- could be analyzed and you think at this as -- Analog of what the -- got from Verizon you know who cold troops and we know who mailed to through.
Then they're claiming innocent piece that you're quoted in the New York Times that for example this -- and a helping getting.
-- Shannon gas Richardson the actors in new Boston Texas who sent the anthrax.
Two Mayor Bloomberg again to the White House and that -- tracking program helped capture her.
And and we don't know how how true that is you know -- -- heard the NSA director say that all this other eavesdropping helped in.
He -- fifty terrorist attacks foil -- in the US.
The real question not whether it helped so that was instrumental.
And I feel would -- -- attack should have gone on.
Without -- that this person not been captured without it take these these programs are expensive.
And we want to know if there weren't that we help this such a nebulous words what does -- mean.
And we also know of incidents of abuse for example Mary Rose Wilcox -- -- -- Who -- this case against.
A man who calls himself America's sheriff Joseph Arpaio.
This guy known presuming can -- immigrant raids and in Arizona you know the -- -- -- the -- -- underwear that he -- that.
Think the people in needs to Wear and and apparently he obtained male cover some post office to track her -- -- be critical of him.
And that's a question that's right you know we know there are abuses in the attache case -- There's the question is less.
Whether the government should do this and more what is the transparency and oversight to be very generally.
We recognize that the society that police.
Need to violate our privacy -- crimes we give them that authority we give them that right we do it -- -- a good idea.
But we temper is that with transparency.
Oh it's supposed to lead over the oversight of a court particular case of -- with the NSA is doing a fights a court yes.
It could be America's secret court and it and if it even weirder.
He could rulings made by a secret courts.
About secret law.
We -- really almost certainly approve almost everything -- -- and asked to approve.
Everything and it was something last week we heard that one of the secret judges on the secret court.
Made a ruling still secret that you couldn't tell the other secret judges on the same secret court decent talent that didn't think -- like America can -- Yeah I I agree with -- what we -- so does the average citizen -- -- seems like we're powerless about -- At this point our only recourse is to vote for people who won't do this right this is something the government is doing without our consent previously without our knowledge.
It is to -- -- violation of the constitution.
And we can only stop it by demanding it be stopped right in this -- happen in the seventies.
Projects shamrock was -- not telegrams that church commission we able to rein in the NSA can we do it here in the twenties teens.
I don't know but we have to try.
When you say elect people -- talk with version -- -- security technology officer -- -- and -- -- electronic frontier foundation.
In terms of voting for people who might change this at what level could they do at congressional level senators president.
You know I mean it it's gonna be that it's going to be could be the -- -- -- you know someone has to say to him and say look cure rogue agency.
You're doing these things that were clearly not allowed -- Sensenbrenner who wrote the Patriot Act.
That they were misusing the intent of the Patriot -- It this is anything -- what are my culture -- just doesn't full normal party lines they were Republicans thinking this is okay Republicans are appalled.
We -- you know most Democrats -- we have some Democrats.
Senator Barbara Boxer saying this just fine the fact that it's not just Republicans vs Democrats.
They got libertarian Republicans like Rand Paul for example.
Even -- beat people like sensenbrenner and you've got more progressive Democrats are kind of on the same side of this.
Right -- and that means we're not gonna get the same gridlock and maybe something happened.
We you know -- system that is a big deal I mean this this is that the government is its -- -- -- -- Yeah and you get a number of people -- also say they feel safer and that's okay giving up as Benjamin -- said we should not do.
Are as security.
-- -- safety I mean our privacy for safety.
I do security reliving this is what I know that these programs do not to make us safer -- We they've -- really know the had we quantify that.
-- and that's what we have to demand from the NSA.
Prove to us that the hundreds of billions of dollars being spent on these programs is money well spent I can make up some numbers.
-- -- -- FBI -- -- 100000 dollars a year in this program -- hundred million dollars a year is this program worth a thousand FBI -- if it is great if it isn't.
We shouldn't do let's see the analysis that we could -- for any cover.
And they will say if we -- one terrorist attack or save one life.
What price do you put on.
Well we know that's right you know we can save a lot of lives struck the speed at the speed limit at seventeen miles an hour we could probably take 30000.
Lives a year.
We won't do what we know what.
You get -- martial law but where's that nexus between security and privacy.
-- it it's not a trade off.
You know security vs private he's not a trade off I think -- door -- -- -- burglar alarms and a tall fences did a lot of security it has nothing to do that privately.
But good secure that keeps us safe -- -- -- think it is not the stuff that -- our privacy.
-- thank you for your time is our sentinel program thank you thanks so much Bruce Schneider.
-- chief security technology officer DT and also with the electronic frontier foundation.
And the story is on -- dot com you can check it out there are links in the New York Times article out today.
About something we didn't know existed -- people like -- probably suspected it.
That we are being spied upon not just by the NSA but by the US Postal Service they know -- sending letters to know.
And they have all the data.
Much like what they're doing with the via phone calls.
You know from hoot to -- -- at time -- but then I'm not the contents of the letters.
At least that's what they're telling us -- -- comfortable with us.
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