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And -- welcome Daniel Ellsberg musically Rand Corp.
Back in 1967 worked on the top secret MacNamara -- US decision making in Vietnam later known as the Pentagon papers.
He's written papers on the war secrets a memoir Vietnam and the Pentagon papers in 2002.
In -- and -- and decision in 2001.
Daniel thanks for coming on appreciate it thank you artery tell me about the comparisons people are making between you and Edward Snowden and how you see it.
Well from one point of view I can relax and enjoy it because I've heard there -- -- people connected with -- -- -- over the last thirty years.
-- used to seeing that -- -- but unfortunately.
Unfortunately it's usually miserable.
Against people that I identified with the entirely -- There is private Manning and that protectionism and they are come out rather lopsided that you were coming in other contestant.
So I have an objective that that led to today's society.
I see myself as being the Bradley Manning -- he had spoken of 1970 walked.
And hero closer to -- -- rather than trader would use.
-- I heard the word trade just as much as they have at that time including the President Nixon.
And vice president Agnew conclusion that a temporary movable -- -- facing criminal code.
Why couldn't -- -- have done -- the way you did it and stayed in the United States.
Because he would be and -- like to Bradley Manning maybe ten Bradley Manning felt at Quantico.
The way that the national defense authorization -- seemed to allow civilians should be under military custody but even if -- -- -- -- -- and other civilian -- Seeing them another chance he would have been above the way I did a good -- -- of an already.
What he's putting out what he thinks issues he would be -- avocado that's his political climate program.
And the second would be -- we couldn't believe Bradley Manning has been.
Which has been called.
And degrading to England replica for -- -- This criticism about these Norwood anti trust -- -- -- -- he showed up.
I have been -- in -- I'm glad that he can't reveal the information that he did that he had to do that I represent the country.
When you well you wrote an op Ed in the Washington Post has published today and you say what things were different.
It was a different America long time ago in what way specifically that makes his actions much like you might have had to do bag then.
If you were doing then if you're doing now what you -- them.
Well the judicial environment.
There's such with the -- that have been.
Elected pointed at all levels really had I have to say.
By Republicans it's so happens that that's -- it goes.
Including virtually all of the judges on this a secret I support.
And intelligence court.
They're making policy here or secretly essentially we're working under secret law.
And -- secondary and here we have a democratic president who -- supported twice actually because very.
To put him through the alternative.
-- he is conducting a dog whistle blowers that we've never seen before Miranda -- or even George W.
That he -- -- extraordinary effort that he just took duke forest on the plane.
President Woodrow from the -- of and Bolivia you don't have -- links to achieve their own.
Google and Amazon.
-- -- I don't -- he said we're not going to be scrambling jets to get this guy.
We're going to be scrambling to French ship -- -- -- Daniel Ellsberg is against the.
We're not listening to look it's just a little -- what has gone to.
Yeah we've been telling them you know you -- the -- well.
-- Alec I need to listeners like -- get I'm happy about it you faced twelve counts and a possible 115 year sentence.
And your bond went up to 50000 dollars but you were free to speak well you under indictment as you point out in today's -- -- the Washington Post.
You're free to speak go to rallies and public lectures but yet you faced although he you know life plus -- It was -- remember I was innocent until proven guilty and certainly no -- found -- -- because it was completed.
By the revelation.
And part of -- of the way.
For government criminality against things though the first trial total I was there -- ended before went to the -- put -- but being innocent.
Until convicted like everybody likes it would -- Again I have been able to bond -- to -- that you do get into you coming to court on time.
And you have to hit it if you don't come back out it -- host the logistical with -- -- -- -- it to begin with.
I think -- -- -- -- as well.
I'm sure he'll get a lot of new indictment later.
But -- at that point eight Libby out of personal recognizance -- when I was basically I didn't fifteen years in prison.
They felt they needed a bond.
But in any case.
That was -- sure that I turned up in -- that is of course I intended to do meanwhile I was I was able to.
-- -- -- well let go of their dependence acceptable Bradley Manning.
I'm I'm definitely not clear on the military difference here -- find it hard to believe that -- -- -- Perry defended.
It is -- -- two well is is not allowed -- doesn't.
Why and why do you think it's such a different scene today why do you think it's a different today -- that.
I'm Bradley -- looks clearly can move around and -- -- can move around in this country he can barely get out of the Russian airport so why are things so different.
Well under an astonishing difference of course it is a division if it it is.
What are Paterno and even with everywhere in the airport it's certainly -- -- ends -- in Venezuela as I open does.
He -- live foolish it is right now.
Called a special operations team.
Coming into thanking him oh without do you agree whether -- was in this country.
That the president of the United States again actually -- Democrat that I supported you placed.
And men don't regret that.
But compared initially -- the alternative but he's made the extraordinary.
Claim and orange challenge him -- he had a right.
I'm not only this syndrome and other people countries and kill people with them including all the great.
And -- would make many more innocent non combatants than than any terrorist.
But ultimately have to pick up -- American man if he can't arrest them or doesn't shouldn't arrest -- he could -- are lucky dog food with real reality yeah.
In today's Christians is to -- them.
I happened to be a person.
Who are subject to play host that's -- -- quote assault squad.
Dozen Cuban American assets were brought up from Miami with -- appreciate capacity we totally.
And of all places on the steps of the capitol where I was like the typical Alex.
They have been decided being really can't even tell those people killed uneasy that they were being sent out.
To -- the rest of the day as apaches and wanted to put it so -- sort of put that operation I was lucky in the people accept that.
Had they not been -- -- of that -- you would not be here to talk to us.
That's great that's great.
So when when people raise the question it was absurd to think for example that truly in the shot put it in any danger when they were looking for -- -- open battle.
I had to say well.
I'm a person who had that.
Threatened to be -- not threatened to attempted to be thirty years ago.
But the difference was it was so clearly illegal.
I didn't have to be kept totally secret -- -- -- -- from testifying truthfully.
He had deprived them.
But where do you have to -- -- because he was anxious look martyred in particular.
That Clinton had to beat tiger is actually to give -- -- testimony about that.
And that was another crime the particular kind of questions now all that's changed.
I wouldn't have to be kept secret now the president is perfectly open about it.
So you ask out of country changed.
Change or global.
You think that -- Obama would order some kind of squad to go over there or.
Commit some kind of act.
And that's -- I wouldn't be on the -- well well look it he -- wasn't complaining that decry it.
The illegal orders -- -- at least against international -- who -- president not to anybody in the country where not to refuel and -- but it seems to be asking that question.
You know what would have happened if they would scramble jets.
But in order to and -- -- unlikely as it is that it decided all of my head of state I have -- -- to -- this diplomatic community didn't have to shut down.
-- posing in Austria a little bit you know off the plane.
Other countries do -- we're we're -- -- -- -- -- did not undergo additional capital to other deaf and he had to -- there.
What punishment had been on the plane.
What do you -- snatched away from the president do for Bolivia and what would have happened to.
Supposing he's -- -- -- well fugitive from justice it would move that would liberate all -- -- -- Editor that you -- -- -- I think we've -- -- CF case for years.
Academic work -- the amnesty for years acted as if he put it.
He's subject to rendition.
Patricia the polite euphemism for kidnapping.
And and the possible assassination that took a -- -- objects.
We -- excited Daniel Ellsberg think pentagon papers fame.
-- to the Rand Corp.
Worked on the top secret that the time known as the MacNamara studied US decision making in Vietnam.
Plan at that time mr.
Ellsberg there was a great deal of dissent in this country.
About the Vietnam War and so you had some a little bit though that air earlier -- did you not that perhaps -- -- doesn't half.
That's true I was part of the movement and mass movement.
Up against the war.
And that actually that's why it never entered my mind to leave the country because my remained focused -- was on an open being one of those opening.
And war Heidi -- sure -- couldn't do that opened the concrete achievement.
Go without saying so it never occurred illegally.
And of course I couldn't count on being out of jail because the judge didn't have to give me upon.
But so long ago was IA -- as -- as an open part of that movement there's nothing like that now.
Generally if there was.
-- could not be part of it is very clear he would be in jail like that automatic.
You said you don't believe snow did anything wrong but what about the document you signed when you take a job when you're dealing with classified information clearly was or not a breach there.
Based on what he did -- Agreement I broke that promise certainly.
Each of those came to realize as it is Bradley Manning was suddenly realize what what is true a lot -- but -- -- really come to country should protect conflicts with that agreement.
Sensitivity in this instance and many others we actually take in the Oval Office which is true of every.
Officer in the army.
PS in a slightly different form every member of congress the president.
Vice president of build its.
Support and I -- the constitution.
Of the United States act with a president who is acting clearly unconstitutional he has.
What is clear indication the Pentagon papers in the case of -- president who.
-- -- Congress essentially is what they were doing in Vietnam and what lay ahead in Vietnam.
You'll just really quote from each who exposed that did not only maybe a couple 100000.
But however many people.
Ruler that contradiction.
And I was currently I would like like playing myself.
Not recognizing -- obligation.
Much much earlier.
I -- -- these cases looking at a pattern of action here pushing blatantly unconstitutional.
Deficit it was amendment.
-- -- -- Opening commit he should be convicted or present a good day for revealing that -- constitute.
But they get a court -- -- that would be very difficult.
I don't think the courts would have -- and unfortunately after the hired much -- chance for forty years ago that they were.
We had -- People like black and publish.
And Thurgood Marshall and others on the court who others who -- -- delivered -- quite frankly.
And it's it's hard to say that so -- -- members of the court.
Yeah well you know we have you you had the advantage also Mike -- The senator from Alaska recently on this program who wanted this in the public records at the time.
Legislate it and he he took -- -- not only that the these papers which -- -- the president and declined.
As -- irreversible harm to the country nineteen newspapers disagreed with.
And acted on their own but put -- I would come -- ineffectual recipient you're going to be attorney general saying that this it was illegal.
It was harmful and they read the papers for the title and they did what they're supposed to do with the full capacity.
And they use their objective about that -- group -- did likewise as a center and I'll wait until he put them into the congressional record for the hundred -- that -- years later.
-- after the 2006 election in which I was I must say very -- disappointed with the detective.
Getting a democratic majority in the congress to put more on that no going to be -- -- asking duke.
-- very old retired -- and it might.
Do you think this congress is extraordinarily cowardly.
Any kids don't know bill would ordinarily country.
Oh that sounds Laker -- You can you point out in the Washington Post -- you say.
You talk over the global expansion of the style see the Milledge ministry for state security in this -- this German democratic republic.
Is there an analogy -- meaning between that and what we experience in this country.
The analogy it's more than an analogy it's practically.
Well you can -- to deputy because it's because he couldn't even have imagined.
The capabilities that the NSA is actually using on.
All American citizens right now.
-- Kentucky's ambition and trouble in the movie.
The lives of others -- got an Academy Award in 2006 for the full control.
I urge people come to see that again I just got a commitment to myself -- -- -- -- through deplorable.
And it's got to -- a progressive model of this policy is secrets please.
-- know everything.
What was everything they could know that didn't have a wealth telephones basically again they both people's apartments.
He couldn't have.
Computers personal computers.
In -- different world revolves around and he typewriter so we have them.
They didn't have to actually think it may have email they didn't vote for iBooks as senator.
So all of those -- being encryption at all.
And it has no -- that.
He didn't think it was going to and so what you believed in the fourth but he didn't think it was like -- he had -- -- as one with a thousand.
Young the 6829 year old actor -- the president called.
He didn't think it a thousand people should have access.
To everyone's got a private lives it every detail and people around.
Whatever purpose they wanted tricky -- -- -- or whatever might be or.
And this is the real -- that.
You have the private lives in every conversation.
Of every journalists.
And -- that -- that includes everybody in the media.
The idea of having.
Privileged conversations between sources.
In this country it's not there executive -- that is titled Google investigative reporting I don't have I don't have to.
Carolyn how we every get back to the kind of country it was even prior to 1967.
How do we ever get back to what our founders envisioned.
That's what we should be speaking at a national debate president -- -- he -- he -- to start and I hope he has started it ultimately do.
Here is clearly.
We have crosscourt that are critical of nineteen children front and a bit -- wasn't.
Fully turning the capability of the intensity.
On -- -- the American people.
It will because that he said that's it -- it publicly there's no return.
The challenge emotional -- his.
Whether he would talk about that it is there's a way of getting it under the control -- the rule -- Under the control of action genuinely independent investigative bodies -- from the press.
And in congress and by that I mean something very different.
But candidate to run the Intelligence Committees of the leaders in congress who don't know we'll to have oversight of all -- -- corporate.
Can feel very warm kind of important so important -- -- secrets of the an NCAA which is although she couldn't and even though or they're not able to tell that to any other colleagues in the congress.
This -- what was your lowest point.
You must have been very scared worried concern facing a 115 years.
And actually did not at all I don't take it to -- -- little.
I didn't have very little -- -- and but here that I had is exactly that clear that it would -- expressed.
Clint Kriewaldt and that includes video or portrait that you could -- can get -- -- He should you know what is that you you're really worried about.
And he he already -- you know he knew that -- might get them player in the world is gonna come on here but for all the resources.
He -- my worry is that after all this kind of critique the risk of the other.
-- -- -- -- -- And -- have a -- -- they'll -- -- debate -- had no interest doesn't Saturday completely -- he capping equipment but he has no regrets because there is deeply.
In my case -- exactly the same.
I -- I wanted to help in the war might fear about the Pentagon papers from one thing.
It will be looked at as history has become older.
Street doesn't really relevant or it won't have any effect.
Actually it didn't have a drug that got the compact it affected people's minds addiction wasn't.
-- wasn't paying attention to popular opinion them so they say they're gonna -- it really low point towards.
Not just -- the Pentagon papers had nothing about it.
What we -- bombing Hanoi.
And I applaud.
Including hospitals that are -- capital -- the -- to the department of nineteen to -- Afterward and landslide election which we could have been reelected after his national security assistance and they Kissinger that -- -- But it is apparent.
Attempt -- -- -- -- on that and then at the -- in human history to our.
I continue that the political analysts had -- people -- -- -- -- -- factors supporting them papers and had been.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- It turned out better equipment period looking at -- -- -- don't particularly actions Nixon had taken against me to keep me quiet.
Totally comfortable what is now legally conduct are supposedly going to have an international.
-- and it was actually prevent illegal.
They -- the president with impeachment -- would not be the case today that it was resignation.
Led to a change in the policy the -- of the war what turned out that all the people who do unfortunately.
And the people who would listen to what -- put everything.
He did have an effect it was unlikely that could -- Let me take a quick earlier Lin wood in Charlottesville Virginia go ahead.
-- -- world gone around the great discussion and I but -- corner gentleman's computer that it's a bit on the picture interviewer.
I'll be up -- -- I think I -- this.
-- what good friend here what if they would this this really got Kurds.
IBB hold the document -- -- -- -- from one overseas.
Tiny country to another you know if I mean and we grow our government can't this guy.
-- bought -- -- you know pretty logic it department talking to really distract from the real problem.
Are they -- government's paying Snowden to do this to distract from our real problems.
Whether we're probably at the fact that we were lighted -- war by Republican presidential -- -- -- MD does it matter if we -- Libya.
And we killed Omar could top -- what Parker got -- -- -- party united nation did that.
-- -- -- you want to know from my Daniel Ellsberg.
Well -- tracked or like you know is that -- different sort government conspiracy.
-- -- like everything you've described is of course a government computers.
Some people think that they were conspiracy shouldn't be associated with something the president elect's.
Forward disagree with that I would -- nobody gives you.
The announcer electronic limit -- -- answer.
The government -- Republican toward them.
And an awful lot of people were part of a conspiracy under president George W.
Bush and Richard Cheney.
Delighted Kindle or totally aggressive war against Iraq and -- -- -- -- Democrats special question in my mind that's for the president.
To ignore totally ignore -- towards -- and some real.
Deal you you don't want to excavated the constitution which could take weeks.
Decision to go to -- -- the congress for him to go to Libya without even mentioning it to congress.
Finished I would -- -- clearly know you're an immigrant anger that this I don't know -- -- impeached.
I don't know why he -- know -- in -- court impeach him because they wanted to get big -- obviously you don't want war it is military and -- -- complex.
It it'll -- John F.
Kennedy we can not correct it will kill Kenny which killed.
-- and he wouldn't go back it would invade Cuba would like what happened President Obama -- they get it would hurt again.
Ireland with thank you were you're saying mr.
-- do you think Obama should be impeached over this.
No whatever that you what I just said very carefully what he's committed impeachable act now impeachment is -- very political.
Question here if I -- had had a president.
-- would with the President Obama.
Could be impeach equity impeachable -- with a high crimes and misdemeanors that I see him as having done.
Only in terms of and I could listen to those of the people -- will both -- forward.
I would be glad to see -- the president of the picture but at this moment it's very clear.
-- an impeachment movement started even outside congressmen in the -- congress.
It would be fueled mainly by people who want to impeach him because he's black the other part about it and I handle on the issues like.
-- he or if he did you -- -- -- and you open politically if I think he told.
Just as we couldn't -- They couldn't.
Going way back never could hear the crime because I haven't.
Objections against Cambodia compute concealed for years in the congress if he could probably gonna -- they had to drop that.
A lot of political possible.
I think the same reason he wouldn't get impeachment go -- of Obama for the reasons that I don't think.
It would be a real warning to future president.
This -- not to reclaim legal Republican right.
I certainly must take a break here but would you vote for him again.
Are you actually get against a comparable.
Opponents -- he had McCain about -- in case.
If we had either of them would have about the same I think global civil liberties.
You wouldn't be better thank you so much for your time.
But I they have to Syria right now.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- So that's why I supported the event but I would support him again -- -- for that reason.
I thank you very much for your time Israel's -- thanks for talking -- tonight.
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