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-- -- -- welcome to our show and welcome Jessie walker is written the united states of paranoia conspiracy.
He is the other books editor of reason magazine closer written rebels on the air and alternative history radio in America a -- -- on Jesse.
Yeah you can do it it's our broadcasters stuff like that.
People have the ocean like yeah and that's that site again when -- -- gonna get ballot but this one's great too this is really fast and what brought you to the notion of writing.
About -- these conspiracies.
Well you know IA I've been.
They keep coming up a different story that -- over the last fifteen eighteen years even hours worth writing about.
I think -- in the mid ninety's about -- intersections between the militia movement and various.
A black militant that people would have that would be on the opposite side of the fence America actually come collaboration and beckoned -- them.
Ever since then I've I've just it's a fascinating.
For American folklore.
The stories about conspiracies.
Sometimes true usually -- -- but it it is the great panoramic way of looking at -- history of America's but it looking at the history of things people -- afraid of.
Give a favorite conspiracy.
Favorite as then the -- their favorite than most plausible or.
Left amid that we should go into both those -- -- -- This silliest conspiracy theory I came across the world someone who believe that man -- -- there to.
Capture people and so they can have medical experiments done us.
Hezbollah as possible because -- have a -- chapter and hear about it you know the post Watergate investigations but it church committee looked at.
Very real misdeeds that you know that CIA the FBI the end of the -- direct it.
And and that is important not just it's going you know -- sometimes conspiracy they're real but because that meant in the 1970 just sort of lowered the bar for what other -- you might be imagining.
People were -- You don't get much into the Kennedy assassination.
Now all -- automatically it's coming up in the background and everything you can't avoid it.
And it people talk about it a lot the distance so much written about that I don't want to disturb devote a whole nuclear I -- a chapter to.
Growing at about nine elevenths.
You know the thing that eleven is that.
People tend to focus on the truth there doesn't have a little bit about them but what's really fascinating to me -- but that's -- sort of like on the outskirts of politics.
Is the way you know it is hard.
The political mainstream after 9/11 -- -- -- kind of -- you can just see.
I mean people would feel like spilled coffee sweetener in an airport.
-- into the tomb of al-Qaeda anthrax attack with underway.
Philip story of -- And Texas.
They're -- Jerry -- contraption and a mailbox someone spotted -- You know the police shut down the area it turned out to be a eight year old science projects.
But then even after they counted out they still felt the need to confiscated -- case.
I we've this isn't the whole overreact she took over the overreact to the militia movement rally in of that board of the -- reaction -- -- nine elevenths.
Yeah I mean I mean the fact that we were you know settled by you know there's the department of homeland security and and the transportation security.
Agency with our administration well these -- You know powers that and infringed on the bill of rights without really protecting us and anymore from terrorism.
The you to talk a bit about the militia issue because you think we overreacted to that.
Yeah I mean I think that the the bill that come Clinton signed.
Is the anti terror by 1996.
-- it wasn't as bad as the original version of the bill but it's still on infringed on that the bill of rights and and a number of ways and this was you know they're just have a pop culture reaction after Oklahoma City you know people look for -- And it would serve frightening that the all -- people who would strange to lead to running around with you know guns in the woods.
You know Timothy McVeigh what -- actually a member of the militia.
Of a militia and and frequently when people involved with militias.
We're involved with plotting a terrorist crimes.
That we came to -- because -- militiamen you know then alerted the authorities.
So I think that you know that another period we can look back used to you know what and -- bad -- something like the red scare but we're just because people had a mutual ideas a lot of times that it demonized in the press.
When you what I hear people hear about people like Alex Jones who think they've taken to -- everything's a conspiracy.
Yeah I mean you know Alex -- -- the he has a lot of weird ideas I was just reading via profiled him in Esquire you know and it's say.
I think I mean look if I mean he's an entertainer I mean I think he's -- spirit has.
And I -- I simply easier performance artist run.
I mean I think you can -- in his beliefs but I think -- -- has had to put on this show I mean I mean that's true of a lot of people were at that sort of merit to what we're pop culture meets politics -- -- -- you know a lot of news and talk radio are like that and Alex turned to.
Nobody I know -- Let's talk about the conspiracies around Barack Obama yeah because I mean here we have our first Muslim American -- president.
I was really a Marxist from his -- wasn't even born here right.
-- -- it's a good deal make up your mind.
And by the way those who think he was a Christians think Willie -- to the look at the church you went to this black liberation theology church.
Because he you know you think that he was movement.
He was the you know in sync with everything that his pastor who we had a separate himself -- -- at least he's really here to -- to get the -- that's why is president right.
Yeah I mean there's all sorts of conspiracy period Barack Obama of course I spent a few pages on you know the birthers and and we're all that comes from an actor identify serve different I mean one in particular actually the most important thing if it's our understanding the birthers it's just people wanting.
That kind of the bolt of lightning that would and Obama's political career without the pain of persuading anybody politically.
That actually originated that theory among Hillary Clinton supporters.
And then have migrated to the right it's been -- you know conserve.
-- -- -- Hilary and -- -- the Hillary people dropped it right away they really don't know isn't.
Yeah I mean it it caught on among some of the diehard supporters not a long Hillary herself yeah and then -- sort of caught on among -- you know die hard.
On the conservative side but beyond that.
Their candidate sphere of influence you know this -- sort of general suspicion.
The foreign and so.
He you know it's not a basically from a fear of foreign Muslims and the fear that -- the president -- pretty foreign and or about -- and -- when you have somebody you know who.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- When he Whitman as a boy he did live in the United States -- -- Hawaii that's that they didn't even actually in the Americas.
-- -- -- See the United States or think it should be a multicultural nation.
Then you know the president elect is reason enough to think he's metaphorically aren't they conspiracy theories are good at -- to -- commuting -- metaphor.
But some are some of these conspiracy theories true.
Yeah the iPad that I I have did that chapter on the stuff in the seventies and and I mean I focused on that and that.
I mean as excited that the beginning of the book.
-- has really did commit espionage that CIA related can part of coups and assassination as you're reading this.
Someone somewhere is probably trying to -- a politician people inspire.
And so that -- that helps explain why people then imagine further conspiracies the -- is not.
Do I don't put out as a to do it debunking book and I don't put out to it spells conspiracy theories either it's really just looking at this story.
And what we can learn from them and what they think about you know the people that they -- time with because even if it's story there's absolutely nothing true about the object that does that very.
It's still has something true about the anxieties and the experiences of the people get -- list.
Which I would Jesse Walker's -- the united states of paranoia.
The CIA which you just spoke recently came forward with the fact that they admitted there is something called area 51 ends its secret stuff goes on there.
Yeah I would I would have had to do with some you know weapons.
Part of -- -- have to do it protester dressed.
But there are those who believe UFOs -- there.
-- but that of course there at that now that -- propensity -- going up and again on the CIA off they're just recently.
It you know he confessed publicly to its role in the 1953 coup in Iran which of course has been known forever.
That the CIA was behind that that's an example of another.
A you know a conspiracy but one with I -- I'm really bad long term -- -- -- -- we wouldn't have -- you know the revolution of 1979.
And and and but all that did that guy and -- -- -- this on this than if there hadn't -- that earlier action had imposed the shot.
What we know by the -- -- I hope my -- -- the original Bavarian illuminati was.
I mean there was actually a group called the Bavarian illuminati and who created and 1776.
Amendment suppressed by -- government very you know not long afterwards the secret society.
And since then it has come up again and again -- -- conspiracy theories and and in popular culture at the end of the 1790s a lot of people on the Federalist party.
Were afraid that you know that -- illuminati was the way the French were guiding Jeffersonian -- subverting.
The American republic -- and although -- -- the American society and -- All the way up to you know in modern times here people using -- the moment and -- of being in the limit -- and I I get into the way this story is changed form -- and -- that they didn't and has been embraced by.
Very different audiences -- different times.
What about -- over the build -- -- Yeah I don't get into that is my demeanor is an annual meeting at -- -- oil originally had you know this Biller Bergen -- Europe.
And you know it's a -- -- Powerful people me or.
As well there are two theories is a big kick the president yeah I met.
-- I don't think that's true I mean there is this I -- effective when people or powerful or influential are doing something in secret people are naturally gonna wonder.
What they're talking about.
Which is reasonable and then be -- and actually start imagining what they're doing and sometimes the things they imagine will be kind of out there.
Like the other -- I didn't -- in your book was the bohemian club.
Yeah -- I think that's very similar to do -- -- -- actually and that it's taken United States.
And it also has that sort of burning man that I ritual at the end of it which.
Some people or young freak out about -- difficult to them try to reach symbolism exhibited similar to the builder Bergen that it is the meeting.
Powerful people are there and it's because they're doing things in -- It's very easy to then imagine.
You know way to I mean it's I think you know media outlets should cover you know try to find out what's going on -- there -- that -- -- cover you know G-8 -- -- -- -- that -- -- influential people -- Of people sometimes -- -- and very bizarre goings on those meetings.
It seems like we want to kind of explain things and we may be a summit in the sense it's almost like religion we we -- -- have a reason for being or as so we try to reinvent.
In some cases these things that enable us to.
Put -- reasoning is something you know we don't really understand it.
Yeah I mean I mean that it depends on the kind of conspiracy theory you're talking about I mean I cover everything from sort of you know reasonable investigative journalist to stuff that's.
There are out as you know and the president of the lizard man.
Because I -- -- -- yeah I mean there is that sort of -- I think it -- I'm looking at it it's kind of an American mythology.
And if I could feel lay out some political you know their primal nets expect keep -- over and over -- I really look -- I I don't mean like commits an offense to something that's not true but just sort of like a resident narrative.
That people keep bumps and telling again and again.
An and organizing -- that story stay here.
I'm whether or not those -- -- -- Example -- yes sir I'm like one of them is you know that is the idea of the enemy within and that's the sort of conspiracy where.
Your -- your neighbor your co worker coming your family could be that you did -- -- conspirators.
No gum like look like you would not like it it's different from sort of conspiracies where you're afraid of -- of a different ethnic group or.
-- the regular either like five different yeah yeah prototypes yeah I mean that was the enemy within and without having the ultimate enemy within very archetypes yeah invasion of the body -- right.
And based in India enemy outside is -- -- sort of -- here on outside the -- to coming into the super the country and change it into something different.
And they classic ones of those queried appear native American -- -- and that comes all the way forward to you know -- -- out of fear of terrorism today.
They're the enemy above which is you know that the conspiracy.
You know at a government or powerful institution the enemy below which -- the fear of did you know go lower order scored on -- sort of rebelling.
-- try to overturn -- special order and there's the idea of the benevolent conspiracy.
Which people don't talk about it much but there are in -- -- that long history of good stories about.
Secret society or something like that working behind the scenes to make things better.
That that's little hopeful the book is United States paranoia and that Jesse walker thanks very much disagree with a sniper or elaborate.
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