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-- -- Hello welcome to a spirited debate and Lauren Green -- religion correspondent Fox News Channel well pain -- suffering all the survey showed that these two things are or what caused people to lose their faith in god.
But the woes inflicted by so called believers themselves is the number one reason people would -- organized religion.
And tackling that issue in in her new iBook is bestselling author and world renowned evangelical.
And Graham wants the book is called the wounded by God's people discovering how God's love heals our hearts and joins me now in studio and I got to ask you of course because you're famous father Billy Graham everybody acts asked you about him -- doing.
You know lying he's doing really well he'll be 95 in November while in our mind is clear which on something from it takes a little while longer to recall things -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- In dining by the young yet that's exactly right have a hard time seeing as macular degeneration hard time hearing which is my biggest.
Difficulty with him because he can't hear my voice on the phone.
When I think -- -- -- I have to repeat myself several times than not something an interpreter.
The speaker -- can understand.
-- -- hear -- but had a hard time walking uses a walker or wheelchair.
But his spirit is good his precious you know just.
He really isn't you know what you know we were down on you -- -- my mother and I were down their national two years ago.
And at least we went nearly state of the hotel over the Friday's restaurant or something -- -- and his staff just kept -- how much they love -- Billy Graham and how much they love him coming and he looks forward to coming and and they just all love him as a human being the end they mean even know who you really Obama's history being that America's -- but they just love him.
Yeah that's right that area around bringing me there is like when people need an agent thinking love both of my parents and to me what was seriously wonderful.
Would you have tapped into something that is probably.
Everybody's main concern because it's something pain and suffering isn't -- everybody's separate him from the campaign is different but.
But particularly though in the church when it's people in the church.
Why are you bringing this to light now.
Wounds on the back of my life I'm 65 minute -- you know American legal backing out or penalized -- you can tell us why can't.
And it and there was -- worst thing that's been inflicted and it's not just hurting her suffering but what people do to people and what's been done -- again there's apparent in my life there's a lot of its own.
And I just -- -- got -- given that to me.
As and wanted me to share to but I was also doing a study of Abraham wrote the magnificent obsession which is on the line for me for him.
It in there is historic Hinkle yeah she caught my attention because Hagar with somebody who was wounded by God's people she.
She was a servant to Sarah Abraham's wife -- couldn't have a child with Iran desperately want -- -- so.
-- after -- and lived in the home for ten years you know she'd come to love and trust them.
I respect them watch them in their interaction with gondola author spring and then she was given a -- and Abraham as a surrogate motherhood happens Josh unknown thing and I'm sure.
As -- she gets pregnant -- -- hasn't found she.
-- arrogant towards Sarah and the wounding just -- the cycle and it's just so interesting to Trace that story.
And I just don't like it needed to be something pulled out on the table because people don't talk about it.
Christians wound Christians people -- in the church who call themselves by God's name wound.
Other church members and like you just -- if the number one reason people who have been church leave church and don't go back.
And an end and because they hate -- or is actually quite quite topical because it is.
Hey garden that we traditionally understand the Arabs go back into and that's right and look what -- -- -- -- -- -- and it goes right back to that.
Wounding him at home but then -- look in my life and I had.
Quite a few pounds out a lot more than -- -- -- in the book actually about my husband Al were basically removed from the church within their fifteen years he was chairman of the board of elders.
He with had on the men's ministry.
And -- pastor resign and they were looking for a new or retired they were looking for new pastor and they felt my husband I would have too much influence over the congregations and they began.
-- -- -- backroom deals -- political maneuvering until on the Sunday morning aren't -- they call the business meeting during the worship service and they voted to remove my husband from his leadership positions and when they announced the votes they applaud it.
And I remember walking out in the parking lot and thinking these people who just didn't -- on my -- was burning with humiliation and I think.
These people I know god -- not found something positive he's not -- -- and I knew they were rejecting me but I knew god was not.
Not my concern is there a lot of people are hurt by the church or people within the church.
And they think when they're hurt -- -- people hurt my god I think that's a lot and so when they leave the church thing we've got.
This -- number one thing that people say about God's people what is the number one pain inflicted by.
Church church the church focus I don't know it could be number one on that's what I've been slandered I've been betrayed I've been rejected.
And you know so I think it just in runs the whole gamut it's just that when it comes from another believer you don't expect that you.
-- in in a church you relax you feel like you can hear it's honestly paper yeah I think it's just there's a safety -- right and then when they turn on you then.
It is it -- surprising shocking and is deeply hurtful.
But that this great thing of course is that -- on the gospel of John chapter one says that Jesus came to his own -- religious people of his day.
And the religious leaders in particular.
And he was not received and not only -- -- not receive him and reject him but they crucify him -- Jesus understands he's been wounded two.
And I think that's one of the things when you're wounded about God's people not to throw got away with God's -- -- I talked to one person.
And he had been he what he uncovered the church with some alarming to him and he felt that it was no better than the people outside of the church except and a religious hypocrisy that government.
So he left the church that he left god and I told them I think you can't.
Don't throwing got anything going god allows his people to behave that way they need -- want -- -- golf.
And that's I think the issue is that why does god allow.
That kind of -- -- to go on and his in in his announcing yes.
You know organized religion is not necessarily his house -- -- you know -- just -- and so he's even invited us into a personal relationship with himself from Jesus Christ.
And we commend her personal relationship with him and people who do that -- make -- his family service think they make up the body of Christ that is the real church is not just.
You know doesn't necessarily mean that you should not be in church because -- -- -- scriptures say your call to be in a community center so what's the solution.
I think the solution is for me to look at myself.
And so when I have been wounded one of the things out -- and as I was writing this book to examine myself and how have you been wounded.
You know I think historically investment my daddy and -- we recently home and it was a first down on my siblings have been with my banning.
And myself pistons mother since she went to him so we're sitting on the unstable and -- and standing after that -- something like this thing while others.
Anything and I went to the whole family affair and I thought when daddy were all here anything prayer -- -- you know Franklin -- GG -- myself and and he laughed.
And you said that he had been three years ago he was parked outside and has been beaten -- -- -- that's.
And my sister called in those stadiums and he laughed and -- -- that's what you all are you know stadiums.
And then I thought to myself that's what thin is in -- if it's another thing and I can.
When you wound to me I can see it right where I want you can't -- this like when -- called spiritual macular degeneration while Cabrera -- -- you know.
Well very very front creatures that once and I hope like if that's right he said you know this sin is one of those things where we.
What we -- the victim.
We only see decision that person has assimilated somebody lies -- a liar and the world we live now that's different because we announced plaques in the university think they exclude the -- -- -- that the community about the human beings and we we never put ourselves in.
In the community to actually Jesus you know -- your.
Hypocritical here it's concentrating on the speck in somebody else -- -- -- -- ignore the plank in your own.
So one of the things I think that needs to happen in the church is for each of distance and this is myself.
To examine myself and which I did not -- on it and this one particular case normally in the book.
Just as shown me -- my -- imply that person -- -- -- so severely whenever I'm done to her to provoke that kind of wounding.
In the -- showed me something you know and and I know that.
He showed me more than one thing but one thing -- -- -- in the book and -- out and I don't think that pushing them to me and deserved.
But then she had been hurt on me and that's the thing.
About wounding if you hurt me my instinctive reactions -- hurt you back and then you're thinking branch has to hurt me backwards and then -- just.
-- -- much like it becomes a cycle and.
We -- in in of the real bottom line there was forgiveness and -- and very -- preset to -- last week and that that forgiveness.
By its very nature really is sacrifice and that means it's self imposed suffering -- -- that you know and so this -- The pain that we deal you know -- painful things like what do you do with it after that and how do you forgive someone else was hurt.
-- -- -- and I think when you're wounded and you're exactly right you need to acknowledge that you hurt.
And then I think you make the decision to for your forgiveness is a choices that decision is not a feeling necessarily.
What helps you with the feelings is -- they -- reaching out -- you do something for the person.
And and when I'm done when somebody's hurt me and then not acknowledged I've been hurt and forgive them -- every job hunting is something that costs me something.
They can be more than writing a letter may be defending against her you know talking to them or are doing something.
Just out of the box and then that lifts my spirits out over sick and they may not forgive me and I'm not -- the -- Where people don't forgive me no matter what I do but that's their problem.
Yes -- -- I may not be able to reconcile with them because the reconciliation takes two people.
But if I forgive and then our our reach out and do something for them -- -- spirited set free and I'm no longer bogged in -- that resentment bitterness anger.
You know you get behind -- wounded and you just source.
We're getting we're monitoring and -- Stewart accounting -- What are the big questions you have to ask.
That we -- good news is is everything from capable and -- -- there -- some things on crime so heinous that they just can't be forgiven and I think this is the big dilemma for a lot of us today.
And we can just -- and Arnold laundry list of things of murderers.
And rapists and had a files and all of those heinous crimes and are they unforgivable.
And -- your for your mobile and every I'll just take it with -- -- says and everything in this from your mobile except one.
And that's rejection of Jesus when you step into eternity if you're still rejecting Jesus when -- -- in -- there's no forgiveness but every other thin.
Is forgive mobile -- god I'm anybody can come to god I don't care what you've done.
And that's hard for human beings that's hard for us today I think that you know that was the rebels who just shot seven so there's -- a -- line.
Can they be forgetting yes they -- guy Mohammed himself because he's keeping those women men hostage -- ten years you know it is Batman give yeah I think for a.
They can be forgiven but it doesn't mean you don't hold them accountable line you know you still hold them accountable for their thing and I was actually come ministered to a woman in our state who was on death world.
Can she was executed for -- Committed several murders including her mother five murders -- -- that you -- mother wishing she put her faith in Jesus when she was in jail while I worked for consumption -- disciples and and I believe that I told a perfect eighth inning was -- -- -- -- I believe she deserved the death penalty according to the laws of our state but that didn't mean she can be forgiven and she stepped into eternity.
Knowing god -- forgiven her.
Because when you come to Christ.
All of your -- little ones what we -- you know little medium size -- they're all under the blood of Jesus -- all been forgiven.
And so neat you think about it even the smallest thing -- isn't Jesus of across the world leader of the category -- that we can forgive them.
And in leaving this is -- -- I'm just going to so many times.
And -- Peter when he says that Jesus when he was.
Crucified him when he was wounded in afflicted he didn't open his mouth he didn't try to defend himself -- didn't explain.
He just with solid and he trusted himself to the one who judges everything -- -- one of the things that are relax stand.
Is I can hold them accountable to a degree forgive them but there's some things like what you just mentioned there has to be -- there have to be an accountability but.
When when we step before god.
He's going to settle accounts.
And he's going to set every area right there sure that's probably need Jesus that's probably mean anything's gonna come and take away or stand you took the judgment for -- -- my -- You need you need to have the same hearing is only one according to god and -- suspensions this.
But when you come to him that all of you thin is forgiven and covered and then we need to extend that -- to other people.
Wonder what -- the book is called powerful wounded by God's people.
Discovering how God's love heals our hearts it's and Graham Watson thank you so much for that that wonderful time in anything even months -- -- --
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