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Welcome to another edition of special report on line if you have been here before welcome aboard its place where you can comment to ask questions.
Vote in some polls.
It's a lot of fun more relaxed little expanded -- have expanded panel tonight Steve -- with weekly standard Tim Carney senior political columnist for the Washington examiner Mara Liasson.
-- for the request on national public radio and of course Charles Krauthammer we did not really finish our conversation.
Steve you think that crews helped the situation and was at the -- Line -- -- -- if you start this from the beginning and I think context here really matters if you're trying to tell the story in an accurate way you go back to my day.
You had people like Mike Lee Ted Cruz Marco Rubio Rand Paul and others saying we want to be talking about obamacare this fall the exchanges are set our start.
Are set to start October 1 to sign ups are.
And we think it's important to make Democrats own the issue again and if we can make a detriment or otherwise.
Help slow it down we think that's a good policy -- so they did that early there was a corresponding move in the house representatives.
They went to the leadership in both chambers.
Leadership was cool to not everybody in the leadership but basically the leadership in both houses was cool -- didn't want to be talking about a -- here.
Came up with an alternative plan they wanted to talk about restoring some.
There's sequester funding that had been cut for Democrats restoring some that Republicans wanted.
Restored and then going for some form of what they were calling entitlement reform but I think probably adjustment change CPI.
And that was going to be the discussion this fall and these these folks said.
That's not good enough we want to be talking about Obama -- we need to be talking about obamacare.
You know base they believe I think some of them that this is sort of the last moment to have this fight I don't think they're right about that I think it's a continuing fight.
You can continue to slow it down in -- cause of problems.
But I think it's a good.
That we're talking about this that the country's talking about this at this time you had and -- just today you played the mark baggage clip he had.
John -- John Moore Mark Warner on.
Cavuto show basically defending some parts of the law but also and look Seles is is bad.
Tom Harkin took the senate -- today spoke for about 45 minutes thirty minutes of it was sort of -- fiery.
Speech defending Obama care.
Talking about all of the goodies that the countries we're gonna get free health care for everybody basically.
He also though had to acknowledge that there were these very serious problems in -- and he went back and talk about this analogy of how this is really a starter home and we need to have renovations now we might need to add some rooms that we might -- move things around.
-- that's Tom -- one of the most liberal members of the US senate spent the day rather than.
Talking about other things.
Defending obamacare I think that's very good place for Republicans to be and -- I was surprised that there was really much resistance to it to having them -- that.
But they are Hoosier -- asks how come the GOP in the senate can't stand behind cruise Paul rubio really.
Why can't day cal cop says mr.
cruise goes to Washington.
Many people disappointed in -- those comments yesterday.
Which I think Rush Limbaugh talked about extensively today.
Tim as you see the light on top cap still on.
That means -- still working over there.
He is a moment here where you see as -- mentioned this.
Pretty big divergence.
In the Republican Party.
And I think that that Steve was getting at the crucial point there which is that.
The Republican leadership in both chambers do not know how to lead a party in the Tea Party aren't we don't have earmarks anymore that they can whip them with.
Then there's this ability these outside groups you've got heritage action that senate conservatives fund -- Club for Growth freedom works they're out there they're communicating to the senators.
Didn't constituents who are they getting back to the senators the senators are no longer able to control the message to the states the leaders are no longer able to set the town so things are a lot more on -- leak it's much more like herding cats than -- -- and -- the leadership doesn't yet know how to handle list.
And guys like Cruz and Lee and Paul are going ahead and they're the ones were actually -- the party one way or another now that point is there could be a more productive way to -- the party than by calling Neville Chamberlain.
If you if you disagree on tactics it's it's ridiculous to say that most of these Republican senators want Obama -- but that's what.
-- crews have set so can you.
-- the party as a as a Tea Party your in this way with outright without alienating the Republicans I think that's a question going forward.
-- because if you're one of these Republican senators who really is against obamacare but realizes the tactics of this particular.
Effort are futile.
Because the numbers.
You go back to -- home state where people say hey he just said you.
Are taken -- out.
That's why they're so mad because therapy you know -- Ted Cruz is.
Convincing people in the Republican base that if only the other senators did something obamacare wouldn't go away which is not that you know that if the government was refunded.
Him -- -- would still go forward in other words he funding the government does not defund obamacare.
-- which is ironic and also Steve mentioned -- things wrong with that you bet there are there many things wrong with that.
But we're not talking about fixing obamacare.
You know tweaking it to get rid of the Cadillac tax -- the family glitch or any of those things I don't think the Republicans would stand for one minute to just fix some parts of that.
Because that would make it better.
And that would help and help it succeed anybody for the delay I think that I.
Oh in the context of -- delay will that I think is a is a line where the president can't cross because if you delayed the mandate the -- right falls apart.
But Ted Cruz -- say at one point they said two different contradictory things one is this will wreck the economy it's bad we've got to stop at the other is we've got to stop them for goes into effect because people are gonna like get a monthly like it you'll never get rid of the -- camp.
-- granny 031350.
Writes the base is tired of the establishment giving away this war.
That from the user code name she's probably you know the moment here.
I understand that this was very emotional moment.
Whipped up everybody who oppose Obama care but I thought Rand Paul's threaded the needle on this very well.
And he did it on the 4 o'clock show that they Cavuto show.
He said look I understand that there are Republicans who are opposing this tactic.
And therefore I would never insinuate.
Horse say that these people.
Pro Obama -- he didn't say it but you know -- Chamberlain's.
And he was the one sort of looking a little bit ahead of the game.
Where -- crews was out there essentially calling anybody.
Who didn't accept this -- in -- pieces and now he's calling for the Republicans to join him.
In opposing cloture meaning keeping the bill open and not allowing a vote on it but where does that leave.
Even assuming you can get sixty which you're not -- -- get connected again the Democrats.
That means that the government shuts down if you suspend action.
The the bill to fund the government.
The only the only outcome there.
He's the government shuts down and without a doubt Republicans are gonna take the blame I think it is a lot smarter to shift the debate.
To the debt ceiling where a lot of people just don't like it no matter what hand.
To -- specific items that we know.
Are popular with the public and to make you stand on that.
-- -- the game at home right through to -- by the way that's not the Starship Enterprise -- -- Shading tears through the right changes and put it -- scenario you can see the capital -- children and that's the real capital.
-- Think that is somebody said Jerry do you go.
Now it's that big building behind this is and US capitol -- -- -- -- signals from Mondale.
Send to countries that I can't just -- Gerald just -- talking.
From the central leadership.
You were talking about.
-- that government and where some Republicans are asked to do we pull down the center Alexander.
Sound -- -- -- -- -- OK well let's pull that down while -- continue to talk.
Are saying that this debt ceiling fight is better.
Like Charles suggests but others are saying that perhaps that's not even.
The battle -- -- -- You could lose that one too because I think that that the losing on the debt ceiling would be more palatable -- the losing on the continuing resolution particularly if the losing on the continuing resolution came after some kind of a government shutdown.
Losing so let's just anything to play this out -- would not say Republicans.
Choose to have a fight on the debt ceiling in the fight over two thinks -- fight over these exemptions.
You -- exempt based exempting members of congress.
And they fight over the individual mandate those two things specifically and they don't do all this other stuff.
Those are -- documents for Republicans to be making at this point really the president of the United States is going to say it is going to argue against.
-- Against opposing a debt ceiling hike something that he wants argued.
The opposite side of -- -- yeah he's gonna say that so that he can continue to exclude congress from the same kind of treatment.
-- the rest of Americans are going to be subject to under this law.
Again he's going to fight the -- this notion of the mandate on individuals after having already.
Suspended the mandate on businesses yet it's hard it's hard to come up with the worst.
Argument for the pres the United States have to make is now the problem is the -- -- -- -- briefly the problem is.
They need apparently to.
To include this Christmas tree have all these other things tax reform keystone all these things.
In order to get the 218 they would not be able apparently to get into eighteen.
In the House of Representatives just focusing like a laser on those two which I think would make for a better better political argument but apparently it's not new.
All but there's a big difference between the president accepting exempting members of congress.
And delaying the individual mandate one of them is a key structural components of the Affordable Care Act the other.
-- in 2014 it's actually not that key structural component yes in the abstract you need to force young healthy people on two basically.
Older and sicker people to prevent this price spiral but next year the fine for violating the individual -- yeah.
Is 95 dollar or so percent of -- -- so I prefer to 2014.
Obama I think Josh symbolically would be huge hit.
-- policy wise it doesn't make that much difference and existing members of congress would put so much pressure they're not.
They want modified that I mean this is it's but the truth is it's really bipartisan Republicans don't want it.
Democrats don't want about Republicans mad about because it makes.
A good political argument.
There's no that put so much more pressure on the president in the White House to open this up again to other changes and wants to open.
-- and key hole -- -- -- still do not like green eggs and ham.
Richard says I thought.
There were all phony scandals.
The there are many people saying you guys get it but the leadership doesn't.
Laura and Bethesda says -- is the background behind Charles also real or that video from a camera facing station -- more video from camp -- the station.
It's just -- monitor.
OK so get that we are Smart you -- yes.
Imagine really them -- -- yeah.
I DNC head cool -- The work for my best defense.
-- -- Can -- make one point yes it is fully there's a lot I mean this is an argument that was had very much.
Earlier -- Obama care about the individual mandate -- -- as you say the entire idea.
If they get younger folks.
To pay double essentially what they would under ordinary -- of circumstances.
Today under the you know the actuarial.
Or circumstances or persons sixty page about six times a premium of about twenty -- Because it -- six times as much.
The congress did created its -- arbitrary wisdom that they threw the six time should become only three.
So what you're doing is again another transfer of wealth.
From the young to the old the basic problem of our entitlement state is that we have this enormous transfer of wealth.
Through Medicare and Social Security from the -- to -- which grows every year and squeezes out everything so rather than entitlement reform.
Which would reversed at or at least slow it down.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Hidden transfer of wealth and it'll be hidden in the premiums it is exactly the wrong prescription.
For a country that's getting older and what health care is getting infinitely more expensive.
On the substance of obamacare.
Tim is right I mean they need to young people to sign up in great numbers to balance this out.
You know if you're young not making a lot of money eating Rama noodles.
It is tough to say really I wanna buy this health insurance this is what I -- to do.
And the -- start to go away if you get over like 30000 dollars.
A year it starts to get.
You know right pretty pricey potentially depending on what exchange -- That's right and look but that is the way insurance works insurance works to get a huge pool Lotta people don't need it that pays and for the people who do need it.
And that's the way this is supposed to work.
And they decided to do this through -- coercive.
Mechanism which was this tax.
-- penalty for not signing up -- his low in the first year you know it is only 95 dollars but does grow.
The big question is.
You know if substantively it doesn't make that much of a difference of its -- with the president ever agree to that you know my understanding.
From talking to people is no that's kind of a bridge too far for him -- some of these other things I'm not sure about.
But the thing about default is interesting we have heard John Boehner say over and over again this is not gonna happen.
You know the Republicans are not going to put the country into default.
If they don't if they're not willing to do that how did they use this as a as a -- And that's part of why I think this is just a -- to further drive home democrats' own Obama care.
And then when Obama cares very unpopular in November 2014 Woodson presumption the Republican presumption is -- -- Then they can use that take over the senate and hold onto the house -- just saying.
Democrats own it Democrats on -- Democrats -- Douglas justices Democrats keep saying Obama carries the law of the land but even the president refuses to fully -- it.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Others I mean tomorrow's point in the probable I think that the White House faces to a certain extent and this goes back to this -- of endless game of -- is that we've all seen.
The entire world the -- Redlands really don't matter that much to discuss how we made it matter with the house Republicans in a way that they didn't with Bashar Assad and his -- -- -- -- people out of the house Republicans are so -- -- -- is partly because of what happened with Syria and I didn't think there was any truth celebrations and expect it probably would have emboldened them but I do think the question I -- think the question about the debt ceiling is an important one because we have heard from top Republicans over and over again that they are not gonna.
Let that happen.
Busy in Tennessee if Republicans get anywhere with -- obamacare in the debt ceiling debate it will be because crews till the soil now.
Out here we don't give a flying flip on procedure we just want results.
I must -- heard that he had.
Yeah and that -- out.
And this is part of I think what frustrates.
Most of the Republican senators is because.
They could sit down and drive diagram -- -- this is why this is not going to defund obamacare.
But it sounds of the grassroots conservatives like this is chicken and the reason is because for that bush decade.
Republicans didn't use strategic excuses as ways to cover off for -- sacrificing principle for politics.
Whether it's passing Medicare part.
And then we get Harriet Miers in the 2006 election.
And you know the -- Medicare part.
This is a tactical difference that comes from.
Ten years of the base feeling like they were being played like it was -- football.
There is a real irony in this the fundamental.
Issues that drove the creation of the -- card.
Was -- resistance to expansion of government.
And also and it became more general -- a sense of constitutional us.
Remember after the big victory in 2010.
Republicans in the house began the session by reading the constitution.
So if there's if there's an idea that underlies all of the particular issues.
That this you know the bases been pushing it is that we've strayed from the constitution were overspending.
We work -- we're doing all of these things.
Well the procedure of the congress.
Is a fundamental element of the constitution.
And you say oh you know why are being held back by the fact that you can govern from a single house because of the way that Madison.
Wrote these -- constitution.
Is to undermine the very idea of the Tea Party in the first place so it's not just procedure.
It isn't just arcane stuff it's the fact that he -- -- -- has been passed and if you want to undo it.
There are ways to do it that are required and that government.
Divided branches that cannot be done under the current circumstances.
Is that just using procedure is a way out I think that's a fidelity to -- The constitution into the way we structure our government.
Asks do you think President Obama will give the UAW.
And unions a waiver to placate his base and Richard Trumka.
I don't think so in this climate he starts doing that I just don't see how he can justify that.
They don't like the Cadillac tag you know they don't like certain things he's gonna give them an exemption but he's not Wellington to negotiate with the Republicans on some of these other things I think that would be politically untenable -- -- -- right after election when he fourteenth -- I.
-- it may be be very politically difficult for him to do that right now but I mean the last thing he needs -- if this is if this continues to grow as a as a public debate.
Is to have the -- is a lot with the Tea Party and what's happening right now.
Yes in cup yes on paper yet every single Republican -- speaking about obamacare is waving around the latter.
That the yes it's true and I'll say yeah let's defund repeal obamacare he -- I don't we don't like this but I.
-- -- the process he said he's anything bad for not just our men and millions of members it's bad for the country and if we can't change it we need to east did -- did raise the prospect of getting rid of.
Fact is that that there's so many things that that he compromised on in the reading of this bill to satisfy the unions I think that.
And I think people -- would be better today if he hadn't done that.
Will this vote with the CR.
When it comes and and it could come again -- -- see.
Democrats are huddling with the White House chief of staff McDonough at this hour according to our producer up on Capitol Hill.
-- per -- he's also saying they're still continuing talks about moving in this.
And we're not getting indications going to be tonight but it's going to be earlier than I thought.
If they move it and these Democrats who are -- -- states' side with.
Harry -- Is that costly on this vote or has Ted -- somehow watered down deep pain those Democrats would have felt on that vote.
No I think there's -- there's going to be a vote to strip the defund the language.
And that that vote only needs 51 votes too so that's -- so and -- some but that means that there's a little bit of wiggle room.
Harry Reid could go to Mark Prior and say you were allowed to vote against my -- strip.
And -- and protect -- what -- the foreground and what about the cloture vote to move.
To close on the bill.
That cloture vote that cloture vote will have 2030 -- I'm looking yeah.
-- can attack that you can attack Democrats on that because you'll have Tom Coburn voting yes.
And don't forget they're really only were really only talking about four Democrats who Mary Landrieu right Louisiana -- original writer.
The -- and prior alignment and crime and every vote every tough vote you get to give one or two of these guys have passed.
I mean and you decide who needs it the most.
But I think the Democrats feel stronger today because of what's happened it's true that Cruz has done.
Something good for the Republican base he certainly got himself a lot of good.
But you know politics is complex and the Democrats feel in general there's been a lot of attention on Republican tactics.
Less attention on the -- the big substantive debate on obamacare and they feel better about so they are right now.
Public is I think it's a half a loaf I mean I think had they been able to unite back in June or July.
On a -- pushing a one year delay or and you know the exemptions or.
Pick two or three big things drive the argument drive it in the united way I think they would be -- potentially a better position now.
But if the alternative wise as it seems to be back in May and June.
Not talking about obamacare law and that -- that was not I was surprised when I was doing I know this this was very it was very clear that that.
Including Obama care in this in the budget and that debate was not at all a sure thing.
Back in that time -- and again if you talk and Mike Lee and others.
And I was talking them back then.
-- and we've we've we're trying we're trying to get tempted to buy -- and to include it and they won't included so.
You know if you think that we should be talking about obamacare from that sense it's a win even if it's not the wind could have.
Trust that's the assumption I think that's.
Probably wrong I mean it was said here on the table.
That you know if we weren't gonna discuss this this was the last chance to discuss obamacare I think absolutely not.
As it gets going.
-- all the glitches we know our economy all the horror stories that we know are coming this is going to be a continual discussion between now and Election Day.
So did the focus on it here and now.
Act as a catalyst for this discussion absolutely not the way he did do and I think Marat he's writing on this program even -- the mode as well.
In this underground -- -- mean I don't even after the underground network and and the public radio and but that's the brilliant yeah.
It's a double.
I -- absolutely I think he's you read you guys really know how to do it.
The point is that he's hiding cruises type two things.
Which is not popular in the polls.
With shining down the governor also which -- -- so how does that help the Republicans and so we had a big discussion about Obama -- today.
Which we probably wouldn't have had.
But on grounds -- Republicans are the weakest and it doesn't it anyway.
Guarantee that we're gonna have a great you know a great debate because this was the last moment.
This was the first moment this is the beginning of the new implementation.
Which is gonna go into a train -- I agree with you that this did not have to happen at this time because after January 1 as ten cruises argued.
It's done it's baked and there's no changes it's over.
I don't I don't agree with that this will be a continuing argument but I think it was really important to have -- in the context of this discussion at this time.
Precisely because we're right on did that precipice of the implementation of this -- right.
We're we're on the verge of having people sign up people are going to be going to their doctors are -- people are going to be going to their doctors in January.
Doctor Who have no records I think this is going to be so catastrophic.
-- to have failed to have this discussion at this time and remind people as Tim pointed out.
That this is wholly owned by the Democratic Party this is their baby.
Was tremendously useful for Republicans and if they can avoid -- shut down.
Allows them to make that case yeah focus on these other if these smaller issues by the way.
Today the web site designed to help residents here in Washington DC.
Find affordable health care insurance.
Is experiencing some software glitches.
And this of course just days before the October 1 launch on DC health -- Says it's not currently able to make any new Medicaid eligibility determinations.
Or calculate tax credits for purchase of private insurer and the DC government is telling Fox News.
As of tonight some of the work can be done over the phone.
And some can be completed on line in November we did this story Charles about the federal system and how there -- Which is already they're saying they're working them out but October 1 is six days away.
And you know the it's potential for some interesting stuff.
We -- -- to say there's a glitch here a little bit of bump on the road.
Remember and we glitch will mean that there are thousands.
And tens of thousands of people.
Who cannot get the health care that they want.
So it's cheap you know you can dismiss it as a glitch.
But in the lives of people it's gonna have a tremendous effect I Democrats who said that there are -- five million more people who are going to have health insurance.
Then didn't before that well if it works right.
They will their -- -- going to be on Medicaid most of them.
Which as we know is a form of health -- that is so difficult.
And so poetry that if any member of congress.
Had to be enlisted in that they would -- out -- their hair on fire which is why all of them have won an exemption on this.
They're not gonna get -- high school I mean look the fundamental argument against Obama can't resist.
They were trying to insure the uninsured which I support.
And I would have done if honestly if you impose a tax.
The people and you say this is going to be a pool.
That was subsidize everybody who goes in to Medicare or Medicaid or whatever or a different program.
So you see what the -- -- you know it's not a free lunch and you don't mess with the entire health care system.
Anyway that's unpredictable.
Contradictory and creates a thousand glitches which -- effect.
People who are completely unaffected by the issue of the uninsured he was exactly the wrong way to go about it.
And I would repeat yes there are good parts to this insuring the uninsured is a good idea.
But you are disrupting and in many cases completely uprooted.
The health care and even the employment.
People who -- subject to this which is a crazy way to do it and that's why I think it's gonna have tremendous difficulty.
Be able to work itself out in time it could collapse under its own.
You say this -- and writes if the Republicans would be as ruthless and I promise you they could do it but no Democrat.
-- -- both chambers and only difference if yeah ruthlessness or or will or desire means that it is there -- and that's what are almost everybody Cruz has convince these people we just try hard enough we can do it.
And that's not true they believe that because again the last decade the conservatives are being lied to and tonight we are trying but.
-- point is for the four Democrats in red states up for re re election.
If they're getting tens of thousands of calls ahead of the -- fourteen race from constituents who are just really really PO about this.
That they're going to really have a hard time voting.
And then that -- becomes.
Really painful and then they may be switch votes that I guess that's half.
That is the thinking but guess what Democrats have a -- true.
I mean that you know you do that because you come from a red state and you need an independent voters.
There -- there are democratic base voters who will abandon you if you do that.
And it because it's filibustering a bill that actually deep bonds who.
My -- and you can eighth crews can make his skin is complex parliamentary argument but then he saw one having to you know draw the map.
Does this help Ted cruise the politics yeah.
-- -- -- -- -- Well -- that we have unanimously I didn't.
It helps him is who he is -- -- -- case his vision is -- he's not looking in the senate is looking out -- the people of Texas he's looking on and every conservative he's looking out and everybody who gets emails.
From freedom works and Club for Growth and would then he is now they're champion every -- who have been listener and is now -- Ted Cruz is -- guy for president he's a guy for everything.
But he's -- lots bridges inside the capitol.
And are there other guys anyway -- Tom Coburn was a guy who's supposed to be this bomb -- this fighter and he's built lots of bridges and there.
Mike Lee could still build bridges and Pat Toomey who's going to be the guy who can report with the the grassroots and also have some clout inside the capital that's that's what I'm off.
-- -- -- He's why I'm a Dr.
And that I think is the difference that will put him over the top.
You've just issue a -- yourself another spot IR Levin and rush and I was moved by -- read them.
Green eggs and spam.
An emotional moment.
OK panel thank you very much does it ends another edition special report on line thanks for joining us we'll see you next Wednesday control room.
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