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And hello again from Fox News in Washington well it's been another tough week for -- -- -- care with continued problems on the government website.
And growing -- -- over the hundreds of thousands of people whose policies are being canceled.
In fact healthcare dot dot was down again for repairs overnight for at least twelve hours.
But are -- is just bumps in the road or signs of fundamental problems.
We brought in two experts to debate what's really going off -- James could try to as a health care expert with the Ethics and Public Policy Center.
Doctor Ezekiel Emanuel.
Is one of the architects of Obama care and vice -- the -- at the University of Pennsylvania and gentlemen.
Welcome to FOX News Sunday Thanksgiving having so let's star.
We did not pledge from the president when he was trying to sell obamacare here it is.
We will keep this promise.
To the American people.
If you like your doctor.
You'll be able to keep your duck period if you like your health care plan.
You'll be able to keep your health care plan.
-- no one but won't take elect.
But it turns out millions of Americans are not able to keep their plans they're losing them Florida blue has canceled 300000.
In California 280000.
Policies have been canceled.
In our again -- 150000.
The White House now says -- explanation as well that pledge.
Only counted until the health care law was signed in march of 2010 only for policies that we're an at -- before that and anyway these policies allows -- out.
Well there's two things through there is no extenuating.
Circumstances when you said you can keep your plan even had a -- there was with period in fact he said clearly.
You can keep your plan he said it once he said -- a thousand times this wasn't a minor pledge he was central passing the law.
It's sort of like President Bush saying no new taxes the first President Bush saying no new taxes back in 19901988.
He broke that pledge at least had the honesty to tell everybody is -- -- play it the president actually pledged this and has never really admitted he was gonna break.
There's millions of people are gonna lose it at least fifteen million including people in the small business communities are talking nothing unusual market now.
Many small business people lose their plans to organ we're gonna get to that but let's let's stay with the idea the pledge because doctor Emanuel the Wall Street Journal reported this weekend.
That you in fact we're part of a debate inside the White House -- the time about whether or not this -- you can keep your plan you can keep your doctor.
This week I -- -- -- let me just ask the question of your question market and you can answer whether it was just laid it on Megyn Kelly show this week.
You blame the insurance companies here and us.
If an insurance company decides it's changing how it's gonna structure its plan.
That's not the law doing it that's the insurance company -- for business reasons.
Yes but doctor.
The Obama care law demands.
That the insurance companies change their plants.
But let's get so what happens in the individual market first ball I want to say the president takes very seriously and this he said over and over when I was working forum.
What -- let's go back to what I try to make sure we're consistent with that.
When we passed -- law we -- any plan that create that existed before the -- the law was passed would be grandfathered in.
Unless lots of changes were made -- you know.
We -- we have to imagine obamacare not against a blank slate but against what insurance companies regularly do it I would I I'm but that's what the I don't.
-- -- ask it did is does obamacare mandate that insurance companies change their plans to meet meet certain standards.
Yes because it brings it up but those that look we grandfathered in all the about pre existing -- if you wanna change plans -- you wanna buy a new car you have to meet safety standards now let's go well wait wait your grandma but wait a minute your grand fathering is so narrow for instance -- narrow -- let me give you an example for instance if an insurance company changes the -- -- by more than five dollars over the course of the three years since 4010.
It's no longer grass fire that that's -- -- -- usually 25% change that's a big thank you have a five dollar change in the Coke right now it's not grandfather you have to.
Asked the question how many.
Planks do you change -- a vote before to different ball and that's the same thing here we have a plan we argued about it we try to completely didn't tell the American people tried to come up with they -- all wee bit.
We grandfathered in the plant we tried a couple of -- is set now if this plan has an effect until march of 2010 you can keep it.
That's what -- us.
It says to grandfather a -- -- grandfather plants were allowed.
And if they change I didn't hear what president mentioned the word grandfather in those pledges that's how we fulfilled his pledge.
-- -- -- like -- for a people who knew the law as it was being written new the president wasn't telling the truth the grandfather provision written in the law itself was too narrow.
And frankly they wrote a regulation intentionally trying to get people out of the individual market if they want the people to go into the exchanges.
Because there's a lot of people in the individual market the whole point of the exchanges that closed down into the insurance market insurance company really wanted to explain how people into the insurance company -- don't know why but that's -- companies don't like the individual market -- it's constructed they see the future that individual market is going the way they don't want to win -- and -- president I think that if the president then obviously you can feel healthy -- television making that does not the president of the law does not stop -- -- -- -- -- -- This raises a bigger question which is who gets to decide to -- but we improve the policies.
Right with a net with the Obama care coverage mandates who gets to decide what's a good policy or not our colleague.
John Roberts and historic place this story about a woman named -- matter who is losing her policy let's take a quick look at.
It was very happy with my plan.
But -- I -- -- -- saying there was no longer available and I would need to choose a new one.
To replace the coverage she has her premiums would go -- from 454.
Dollars a month to 871.
Her options on the obamacare website work any better.
The deductible with that plan as 121700.
I can't afford -- deductible of 121700.
Doctor Manuel simple question why does Betsy tattered need you -- President Obama telling her what insurance -- -- For two reasons first the ball.
If she goes and and that insurance doesn't cover enough.
And which is typically what happens with these very -- low cost plans and she gets sick and it exceeds typically we.
Who are insured -- -- difference that's culture watch verdict should -- -- plan but where caution -- -- the second thing is just -- we have safety standards for -- you can't buy a car without a seatbelt.
You can't buy a car without a they are bad.
You can drive them we're not gonna take you off the road but if you're gonna buy a new car you have to have OK let me -- it all right -- same thing with -- -- -- -- -- like you and I can't get -- you.
I agree -- not yeah.
I don't agree with you about the air -- and -- really does say -- -- she is a woman it was a 24 year old son.
You're not -- have anymore children obamacare includes maternity services pediatric services substance abuse services that's not.
The the air back.
It is the -- that we already know doesn't she not -- -- Anita maternity -- -- we all share in the colossal that every -- to get it she will need another high cost circus like cancer care or like a stroke care of god forbid or her kid might get hit by a car or a kid my father wrote a baby.
We have to make sure that people are covered for those thing whether they want to be covered for the things are not if they don't want to be covered and they don't end up and be up there uninsured or they're have very low insurance they -- -- cost for the rest of us that's the whole point of part of obamacare to eliminate this squash shipping.
So people assume individual responsibility mr.
When you -- I thought I and I knew how they load outs when I liked it I Dexter what you have helped us plan benefit from a guy I mean one -- -- lots of insurance plans out there and they're coming covered hospitalization doctor services drugs during the in the individual market the regulated by the states.
They don't need the federal government telling them what they need to get.
Perfectly fine coverage today.
They're gonna lose it if I make my way to second individual market before obamacare insurance companies could throw you walk when you got into these insurance companies are talking about here that's that's talking to carry out deficit without talking what was the other doctor Emmanuel and -- you might need to know what's best of what they like him that's the individual market before the insurance companies.
-- for a little while I was an erupting it didn't it didn't miss.
-- -- -- -- -- The White House response to all this is what we're just talking about the individual market were just talking about.
Of Americans here's how it was explained by Jay Carney.
The universe you're talking about here.
Is 5% that's the whole individual insurance market 5% of the population.
First of all that's 5%.
Represents fifteen million people.
Having done the whole obamacare is to get thirty million uninsured insured and that's the holy Grail but 58 and fifteen million is only second late.
Is it just the individual market -- gonna lose their policy no small business plans are also being forced under the new regulations to pool their workers with a larger pool and other small business workers so if they buy and fully insured market in the states regulated by the states.
There insurance rates can go up quite a bit they're gonna lose their plans.
Lots of small businesses are being faced with this right now and are dropping their coverage maybe to go into -- under an annual insurance exchange doctors and it isn't just.
Small business -- the individuals there are -- is there there are big companies Time Warner IBM and Sears Wal-Mart.
-- -- Walgreen.
-- they're all saying they're gonna take people off their coverage and put them into exchanges none of them are going to be able of those people are going to be able to keep their current policies.
Those are companies making decisions.
On how they want -- insure people remember because of the way Obama can expect -- -- work for Obama care.
Most companies could drop coverage at any time before Obama care companies didn't have to offer insurance to their people and many didn't as we help.
We have a fifty million uninsured people so plenty of people and most of those -- workers by the way.
Who didn't have coverage -- 12 o'clock Obama quite a second bar or obamacare etc.
what -- my heart goes -- -- going to be able to keep their coverage as the president promised the president look the law does not say Sears dropped coverage seniors decide what's good overseer of the law doesn't say to the insurance industry you drop covered the insurance industry decides how it's gonna make money.
When that private companies decide that they're gonna drop people or put them in the exchange you -- President Obama he is not the responsible and ethical problem is responsible for this they set up incentives to penalize companies with a very large fine if they don't have insurance to complies with the Obama -- standards so they pay a big penalty.
If they're workers are getting inadequate coverage you could -- -- you pay no penalty and if you're over fifty it's 2000 it's not a big large incentives in health care law they're forcing companies and encouraging companies to do exactly what they're doing this was not accidental I don't think there's no penalty -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- I wanna get into one of fast -- I care thank you.
One of the problems so far is that many more people are signing up for Medicaid.
That -- signing up into the private insurance plans in the market let's let's put up some of these numbers which are astonishing news of the latest numbers out this week in Maryland.
People signed up for Medicaid.
For private plans in.
For Medicaid and believe it or not this was the the number that came out this week zero for private insurance.
The -- -- product explain why that is significant and how what could lead to what folks like you called the death spiral for Obama.
Care what's happening is these people who go on to the website and actually enter their personal income information.
If it's low enough they automatically sign them up for Medicaid they just -- men and Medicaid program there's no premium so it's very easy they say.
Hearing comes very low here on Medicaid.
On the other people people have to pay private insurance they actually -- a premium.
So if anyone goes on actually can make it through the web -- figure out what's going on.
They find out hey I might -- hundred dollars a month for premium and what and it -- -- -- as the impact as that happens you have people that either don't sign -- aren't something like Medicaid and therefore aren't paying into the system look the system will never work -- -- they're at least five to seven million people in the private side of this exchange not -- Medicaid side.
They are nowhere near that that are a dead stop zero at this point they haven't signed -- hardly anybody.
So they're gonna have a huge undertaking to try to sign up several million people just from December wanted to.
I cannot defend -- I don't agree we've got some agreement here.
We're both agree that you need to -- sign up five to seven million people in the private market for it to be viable that's the first thing.
The second thing is you would expect at this stage of the game from everything we know about the exchanges that not a lot of people would sign up.
That's why I call for.
It's got to be fixed by -- -- November 30.
Because at that point people are gonna begin buying we have all the way until March 31 to get five to seven million people and we would expect naturally I don't pay attention to those numbers -- like because we've been -- -- people will put off a -- but -- you'll let me finish now people put off buying until they -- I have -- -- got those numbers are in -- -- I I've got your point.
Doctor -- here's the question though you also agree that if they don't sign up and I agree it's this is early.
But if they don't sign up that you agreed that it's going to be very bad for the system that in fact they -- the premiums are gonna -- -- If if that the young healthy people don't sign up you said this that an article I.
I agree with that point there is a potential death spiral we don't get enough people signed up.
But by the way it's not in just six months we have a couple of years to get this thing up and running and working and my firm belief and everything we know from Massachusetts is.
That we will get those people cut when you have very good breaks like you -- don't -- -- -- dollars plus 32 year old here's the.
Here's the last question with all the problems with the website more than a dozen senate.
Democrats not Republicans Democrats are now saying.
-- the penalties even delight in one case mansion is saying -- our entire individual mandate a year and we heard this week.
From Max Baucus the senator who helped write obamacare areas.
Maybe we should start thinking about delaying that that was -- our right to penalize people.
For mistakes of different than we have definitely governments made under the because exchange is working.
Should the penalties being delayed beyond march 30 -- should now.
They should not be delayed beyond march 31.
Peek at the website -- working by November 30 people then we'll have a full four months to sign up.
And that's no reason to delay that and I don't think you can pre judge not and if it's working adequately by about it started thirtieth.
That's a hole no question but it's way premature to talk about it I think it's going to be up and running by November 30 and then.
If it's not we can haven't been renewed debate but the -- up call for it now 38 before it's even debut.
I think it's a mistake mr.
-- you've got the final thirty seconds on in erupted.
They -- view this on October 1 -- -- there if we were told all year long it was going to be ready to go and don't delay the individual mandate.
And at this point you got millions of people losing their coverage based on a promise that they're gonna have something and is -- working today working in just thirty days.
The window's closing very rapidly we should be delaying the whole thing for a year.
To make sure the thing works this health -- at all to kill this I played tennis is not -- here after all this is -- a minor matter we shouldn't be playing fast and loose out of people's health and share this process doctor Rebecca wasn't always pretty I'd have to say.
I learned a lot it was interesting I hope of -- both come back.
To continue this conversation because a story is far from over thank you both government and -- you thank you.
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