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The Washington Post and author of blood money.
He's up prize winning columnist David Ignatius.
Welcome to the you -- army for the welcome to the studios here -- impressed extra -- -- and so he had blood money is everything to do with your expertise and that is really what we're in the midst of -- that is his war on terror.
-- will -- approach was with this novel.
Columnist -- travel -- of the worst of them in.
And 2000 Monica actually fascinated by -- stand.
And one out there four times in 2000 and -- -- fascinated.
Well it's the it's the most complicated you could say the most messed up place that I travel to.
And in 2000 on -- begin seeing a lot of their intelligence service one of the things I do as a journalists as it is to talk to people from other intelligence services -- -- and the Middle East and in in Jordan and Israel lots -- countries and I found myself getting to know the senior leadership of the aside.
In Pakistan actually travel to South Waziristan where.
-- laden have -- -- thought to be writing by the way that takes a lot of Kirch well it was a hard trip the if it was it was a closed area that time.
The only way to get there was -- a little two seater.
Plane bumping over the mountains they said basically if you go down and the wrong territory.
Follow you're that said because we had come and get -- But it was a chance to see this amazing.
Brutal terrain world credit has been hiding since the battle of Tora Bora and that and understand a little bit about the people who live there -- culture.
And -- it's just got under my skin and -- -- it's my eighth novel in each book I try to take quote I'm learning and and then painted on a broader canvas in a -- -- -- them here.
LC protect a lot of names to those who VS stories and you can use -- maybe if you put into a novel though is any exception -- using their name -- saying it's true.
Third and sensitive details of journalists learned that readers don't need to know when a newspaper story -- -- kind of wiring diagram details that.
Don't have much for the reader but but add to the -- -- fast I think.
Personal to develop novel and -- the that at some of my friends say that's really easier for me to tell the whole story you know in a work of fiction in this.
-- newspaper column.
Win when things like -- which happened on May second with a takedown -- in line I think guys like you.
Who will wonder where is gonna happen when's -- gonna happen soon it's going to happen or he's gonna strike here again and he's gonna come up even more mobile than ever before.
If I told -- Ignatius in February 5.
But they're gonna find bin Laden miles from Islamabad.
-- guards from a military academy in Pakistan would you told me.
I wouldn't I wouldn't have been surprised by that if they've been increasingly dubious that he was in the traveler is just because I've traveled the travelers.
The two pashtuns of that part of -- of -- -- Don't like outsiders -- these Arabs.
Like the model like his deputies -- jury.
Are outsiders they're they're from a different culture and they try and it.
Make friends of bribe their way in with money that -- the mirroring into the local Crosby did not fully accepted so my feeling was that he was somewhere else.
I'm a little surprised that he was -- a in a place that was almost a military compound.
But you know he could say nothing about Pakistan surprise me at this point.
Well -- this only -- to get to -- -- -- -- over this story that came out today that we haven't captured not killed but it capture.
Of a good friend of bin Laden's who was with him on 9/11.
-- call at a top terror target and they found -- in Afghanistan.
But they believe he came from Pakistan.
These people are on the run.
And I think we're gonna get more of these capture kills the the material we took out of the -- compound obviously what's.
For once a lifetime opportunity to really.
Find and fix in the military phrase these people and then becomes the finish an -- have more of those coming up.
But what was -- but this case -- we know is just how far he was.
But not not only from.
From where we caught.
It killed bin Laden and about a bunch of stolen from a slow month.
But that's how deep into Afghanistan any policies this is an area that's not a traditional telephone stronghold so this -- scattering.
They're on the run their command and -- it's been disrupted.
It'll -- on the hunt them down one my one that's part of part of the story and -- and in this novel.
Well I mean did you did -- situation now as you talk to different people that the that the beliefs.
And the way of life of al-Qaeda with they're demanding Willis to a funnel is with fundamentalism fundamental fundamentalist Islam.
Is less attractive yes in -- to an even five years ago.
Everywhere that I've seen -- credit.
Really put down roots it's ended up making enemies that was true in Iraq.
The reason in general actresses was able turn things around -- in Iraq in part the -- was -- -- -- that the Sunni tribes.
Got sick of living with al-Qaeda and getting pushed around -- I got sick of the brutality.
That was true in Jordan.
Did Jordanians were were being swayed by this social office to the fundamentalist propaganda.
And then there were bombings and in hotels and a moment.
Killed -- was killed dozens of people weddings to -- to Jordanians and and it turned that around so.
These -- that these are these are people who who wants they begin governing.
Don't don't do very well and burned too hot and I think that's something we got going for for us it's another thing that President Obama understands that.
This revolution or calling me Arab Spring.
In the -- world provides an alternative way for people who want their own life who who chafe at American.
-- from pushing and pulling and who want their own.
Narrative if you will to to do that without turning to crazy Islamic extremism so I think that's supposed to bill.
-- as wary as I'm sure you do because you know the people know the names and get him on the phone.
They -- gonna go to the wrong direction that Tunisia at this at -- -- movement inside Tunisian and it's somewhat disturbing disconcerting.
That the rebels -- the people that we really want -- back so I'm saying there's no easy answer any president from linking to FDR.
The -- all the bushes and reagans would struggle with it we just don't know.
We we we don't that's a theme of almost everyone in my books as we don't know enough about the sports the world where we -- -- involved.
My feeling Brian is that this that this part of the world is going to be.
Messed up for awhile as it struggles to become modern as it struggles as our country did in its early years to to to sort out the way it's going to be -- them.
All of the issues this society has.
And I do think that it's important that we not get ourselves tangled up -- that more than we need to be.
So I think we do need to be heading.
Carefully but deliberately towards the accurate and Afghanistan I think that's the cornerstone of our policy I don't know many people -- military.
Frankly who don't don't believe that that's the right thing he's doing right -- it if you leave too quick everything you can't -- he's if you leave too quick you just you just do it again that's that's what that's how the sort -- started.
You know we we we we we -- armed these warlords and Afghanistan -- them with money.
And then walked away and guess what the place flew -- so we have to be very careful not to that again but that's I think.
-- military agrees I certainly agree that over the next couple years by 2014 we need to be our way.
-- turning it over to them letting them figure this out.
And finding ways to protect ourselves against the relieved and.
And then you can maybe -- you frequent flier miles just a little -- I'm.
I'm heading out Afghanistan a couple weeks my my frequent flier miles to do too -- frequent.
-- they -- stay right here we come back and took more by the book the plot line and Harry wasted the Davis situation that we found themselves locked in.
Inside that country and -- out to a story that you minority.
Well anyway -- writing and you -- -- venues from Iraq over to Pakistan good job.
You can do that when it's a novelist Susan your -- he's easier to do or fiction kill the different.
-- winning columnist for the Washington Post author of the brand new book called blood money.
I gotta go get any of the -- so are you sure this isn't just that taking place you sure this is ripped from the headlines.
Well a lot of -- Ignatius is from the headlines -- would you really experienced a program.
So -- when -- break something that is nonfiction what white isn't writing a novel work for blood money.
I don't think people would want to read a 100000 word newspaper storage.
Is it just doesn't have the same feeling of life than -- -- weird -- like three dimensional novel sometimes feels more real.
But I I just final -- -- -- -- only get to know people in the aside.
Just to see her crazy incompetent situation is that the only way I know to tell it.
In the -- -- -- seeing it -- infection that's just the way I found -- you can do it you can in the nonfiction authors and do and I'm just not one of them.
Well let me for example this would be real.
How you view the how you doing the reality of what the ISI does -- -- -- the beauty -- the confidence of the CIA and British intelligence they all play a role so.
Why is it that the British seem to play a more.
A better rolling your eyes more confident -- in the other two.
I -- the British.
The secret intelligence service.
No -- MI six.
Has the advantage first of -- so much history.
That goes back hundreds of years the British in a sense have secret intelligence operations in their soul of British -- tracker better liars and we are than almost anybody in British can look -- -- and then tell your for the -- to smile.
And for that reason they were they were great imperialists they were -- they ran networks of information.
That were incredible and sent people out just society you go out.
Into the end of the -- the -- the foreign northwest of Afghanistan Paxson.
He just lived there and learn the language and grow a beard and -- in the culture and then report back to us.
That date date date date they they have that that have that gift.
I think you know we try our best I think of the CI is too big frankly I think.
It's an American tendency to try to throw money problems we benefit from people say it.
Our do analysts we were just of double spending her you know we've doubled the number of case officers.
-- -- all for -- number of targets that she can go after really know things double in the number of case officers isn't necessarily gonna help him make her.
So I'd be I'd be an advocate this may surprise you -- your -- of -- somewhat smaller morally more secret.
The CIA I think we need to depend on our great gift witches.
That the tactical.
Systems for collection it's incredible we can do this office.
So frustrated and they won't want to talk too much about it I don't -- -- all that much about it if you give me your lot to you can't say well I mean I I'd.
I know -- we have the ability to to monitor.
Communications of various sorts almost everywhere -- that there's almost no.
Screen that we can't figure out a way to get through we have incredibly creative people who do this thank goodness in in this age of technology helps keeps alive.
Right so used to Raymond Davis got himself in trouble.
Tell us how that plays into if someone say what was his novel about what if we wife who read the raid -- problem.
That he had in Pakistan that is at play and let me give you the Raymond Davis summary of -- novel blood money.
The Raymond Davis case like.
This book is about an unauthorized.
CIA operation using undisclosed agents a lot of what we do overseas is essentially disclose -- the other -- service.
We do that and in most countries that we operate.
In the case rim that is the case of the of the national trust my novel there's a -- secret capability that's operating.
To the -- service in both.
That capability gets in trouble the -- -- -- and industry reduces the CIA contractor.
He's assigned to -- My own.
I guess is that he was doing surveillance counter surveillance runs for case officer based -- -- -- Who was probably operating against the big target there which is the Kashmiri separatist group -- -- retired -- was conducted.
Attack in India and 2008 so he's he's there he's being followed by some but he.
Written that that that the that -- ISI official has conceded.
That heat that the people who were following Raymond Davis were known to him and it tells me either of them they were per rush -- -- that the approach aside.
He sees them he can't get rid of them he shoots and controls them for the taxis -- -- in prison and you know I have a terrible problem for the CIA.
Because they're -- -- guy who arguably that diplomatic car that's what the facts and I said.
Is being held -- you have a prompt the ISI the last thing they wanted was for this case to go to trial.
Because then it texting or should say whoa -- -- what are these people doing here what are you what are you giving them Jesus out of the soul on that unravel.
So three weeks before he was released I had a Pakistani source contact and said David the way that assessments -- -- through the very traditional system that we call -- money.
It happens I just finished and the spooky.
But he said that it and sort of column that and I said that sightings -- and sources.
After that the text -- -- talked to the CI -- Tory government.
In fact this blood money payment was negotiated it was negotiated.
Your listeners should know by -- last time we were just presented with a bill negotiations were done.
But the families of the two victims were given money.
And what I want to say is that this is kind of a model for how disputes get resolved but not part of -- what I need to understand.
And accept it don't fight it don't fight the problem that's the way democracy issue where that's at the justices not -- win doable we and we made -- -- we're not in Kansas you know Warren Waziristan so so so I think it's really important that we understand that.
If we're gonna find a resolution -- complex which I think we need to do.
That we that we need to understand how you end disputes and sculptures and that's about.
-- ways like blood money of recognizing.
Of the other party and having some kind of balance emotionally.
That allows the other party to concede and to and to settle on terms cable coming -- -- the ten year anniversary since -- it's anniversaries rumored marking ten years since he attack and then Nolan.
What has changed most about America in that time.
Well I think we were knocked off talents as a country by September 11 I'll be honest I think that -- it's it's understandable -- but we went we went to war in Iraq we went to war.
And twice in the sense we've been.
Tough in pursuing our adversaries as we should be.
But I do think the killing -- solve them on the symbol of that terrible event until provides an opening for us to try to find a -- Back towards the kind of of of overall Latino.
Less of these expeditionary worsening our troops so far away from home and so I'd be and -- before for the idea of using this opportunity.
We we have to be very carefully and our tournament this during the break -- -- very careful not to quickly.
Or we're in a way that creates more dangers than than than we have otherwise but but by the same token.
Take advantage of the fact that the symbol of this terrible action now is -- And would you say that the narrative has changed social studies books America gets hit in Beirut we leave Somalia we leave.
You hit America.
You know the Cold -- towers.
We don't we -- -- investing you know the -- we get hit we never had a reaction between administrations don't you believe that they the world has to think differently of us now.
I've I've put out on on that Sunday night that we all got the news that the law analyst in the first half hour after it.
It's exactly what I said -- -- some of the modern.
When he declared war on America in the 1990s.
Said these Americans are weak she -- -- hard they run away.
And he based on exactly things that you document they root Somalia always examples where we've basically -- -- And if there's one thing -- folks on the -- learned in his last moments -- that that isn't true.
You know when we -- we don't in the end run away we'd be we've we've Staley and we finish our rights and I think that's part of what's changing the -- Right -- gradually -- the book you entire career and the guts you show in finding out these stories in go into the game of terror so many times.
Go get -- David Ignatius wrote it it's called blood money David great to have instantly so much -- -- I would vote to Mexico -- the Washington Post.
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